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Lembit Öpik:
For the avoidance of any possible doubt, is the hon. Gentleman aware that quite a few people in local government in Wales want this change, too? Delyn Liberal Democrats, for example, are very keen to ensure that these changes are made, because they have concerns that some of the bad things that happened in Flintshire might end up being covered up instead of exposed if clause 54 is not amended. Does he
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therefore agree that since the argument has been totally won, the Under-Secretary is under a tremendous obligation to make sure that he delivers to the timetable that he has promised, which is this year?
Hywel Williams: I am grateful for that intervention and I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. As I said, we will make sure that we do our best to hold the Government to what the Minister has said this afternoon. Rather than carp at any questions about motivation or what has happened in the past, I want to accept and celebrate the change in the other place.
I hope to have the opportunity in Committee to examine this Bill in detail. Briefly, I want to comment on a couple of issues that have been raised by other Members. To make a broad point, were we to compare part 2 with part 3, we would see that part 2 is concerned with the audit of local government bodies, and runs to four chapters and 47 clauses. Part 3, however, is concerned with the NHS and contains a mere five clauses. How does one account for this startling variation? Is audit in the NHS simpler or more straightforward? Given the huge expenditure on the health service, I scarcely think so. Is it that local government is inherently more complex? As a former council employee, albeit a long time ago, I do not underestimate the complexity of local authority finance, even in such well-run authorities as Gwynedd county council, both the old and the new. We have had yet another reorganisation of the health service, and whatever its merits or demerits, no one could claim that the establishment of 22 local health boards and a wide variety of some 30 other bodies in the new system is a move towards simplicity.
The NHS is a complicated organisation, and has five clauses about it, whereas local authorities, which are perhaps equally complicated, have a huge section of their own. Perhaps it is not that local authorities are more complex, or that the health service is a beacon of organisational simplicity and clarity, but that the clauses relating to the health service are new, whereas the chapters and clauses relating to local government replicate the existing legislation, but with a Wales tag. For that reason, many who welcome the intention and hope sincerely that the Bill will increase accountability also consider that an opportunity has been missed—the opportunity to simplify existing law and write new law suited to Welsh circumstances, rather than producing a Welsh version of the arrangements for England and Wales.
As others have said, the reproduction and adaptation of existing legislation has led to inconsistencies. For instance, the penalty arrangements in clauses 5, 19 and 29 vary. One clause provides for a £20 fine for each day on which an offence continues, while the others do not. Some might say that fining public bodies is not the right way in which to proceed. After all, the auditor has a right to seek injunctions; alternatively, the miscreant's authority could be hauled before the Audit Committee. Others might say that a £20-a-day fine is derisory, and hardly constitutes encouragement to comply.
All I am saying—and I will repeat it in Committee—is that there is an inconsistency in the Bill which arises from the nature of the legislation being reproduced in it. I shall not proceed with that critique now, but I assure the Minister that my party will be tabling amendments.
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Let me conclude by emphasising the importance of keeping the Assembly and the Audit Committee in the loop, engaging them when appropriate, and enabling them to continue their good work in maintaining the high standards of probity in public expenditure that we value so much.
2.42 pm
Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): This is not a bad Bill, but as we have heard from the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) and the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones), it could be improved. Nor is it a small Bill, and it will require detailed scrutiny.
Some may ask why an English Member representing a midlands shire constituency should speak on this Bill. It is true that there are not quite as many Conservative MPs in Wales as we might wish, but I do have Welsh antecedents. My father was born in Llandaff, and my grandfather was headmaster of Llandaff cathedral school. Both my great-grandfather and my great-great-grandfather were doctors in Risca, in the Minister's constituency of Islwyn, in the valleys. Although I am not actually Welsh myself, I can claim to be Welsh when I want to be. I am certainly much more Welsh than the Secretary of State, who has no Welsh connections at all apart from having happened to end up in his present berth in Neath.
Hywel Williams: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with a past president of my party, Dr. Gwynfor Evans, who once famously stated that anyone can be Welsh as long as he is prepared to take the consequences?
Mr. Robathan: Funnily enough, I do agree, not least because those who stand next to me in church always say, "You must have some Welsh antecedents because you sing so loudly"—if not so beautifully.
Lembit Öpik: May I ask who the hon. Gentleman supports in the current Euro football competition?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. It might be a good idea if the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) returned to the subject of the Bill.
Mr. Robathan: I accept your strictures, Mr Deputy Speaker. Apart from anything else, I believe in neither the cricket test nor the football test. Furthermore, I think that football tends to be played by rather overpaid louts. I say that in my constituency, so everyone knows that it is what I think—and I believe it has been proved this week.
Like the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams), I do not particularly like devolution, and I do not particularly like the Welsh Assembly, for which only one out of four Welsh voters voted. In fact, I have heard Welsh Members of Parliament—not members of my party—describe the Assembly as a rather second-rate county council, although I accept that it is doing good work.
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Mr. Wiggin: My hon. Friend will not need to be reminded that the Conservative Assembly Members were recently proved to be the most hard-working group. Perhaps that is one reason why he was able to be complimentary about the Assembly.
Mr. Robathan: I did not know that, although of course I support the Conservative Assembly Members. Nevertheless, I am not sure that Wales is as much a better place as it was claimed that it would be when the Assembly was established. It is up to the Welsh to decide what form of government to have, but I repeat that only one person in four voted for the Assembly.
It is because of my distrust of devolution that I have certain qualms about the Bill. It appears to be non-controversial, but the taxes that will fund it are paid by all taxpayers. The hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Llew Smith), who is not here now, pointed out that the costs of the Assembly, originally estimated at £20 million a year, are now £100 million.
According to the explanatory notes, the compliance costs will be borne by the Assembly, and the Assembly considers that the Bill will not result in any additional budgetary costs to it or other public bodies. As I have said, however, the original estimate of the Assembly's costs was itself wrong.
I understand that we shall be bringing together 45 staff from the National Audit Office and 200 from the Audit Commission. I hope that that will not involve huge compliance costs. I am not particularly au fait with Cardiff these days. I hope the Minister will tell me whether a new building will be needed, and how the costs will be paid. I understand that the costs of setting up the new arrangements will be £1 million.
I was particularly puzzled by what the right hon. Member for Swansea, West said about the Public Accounts Commission. It seems to me that the Public Accounts Committee here should be able to examine what is done in Wales. The right hon. Gentleman said that it could not, whereas the Minister said that it could. The discrepancy needs to be cleared up.
According to clause 40, any public-interest report will be sent to the Home Secretary—a UK post, obviously. Surely it should also go to the Public Accounts Committee as well if that is requested.
We have discussed the conflict between the Freedom of Information Act and clause 54. It is important to establish whether the Act will override the clause. I do not impugn the Minister, but I think that the issue should be sorted out now, in the Chamber. After all, there is no mad rush for the Bill.
The way in which the Bill reflects on whistleblowers has also been discussed. The Minister has a very good record in that regard. I remember a debate on the subject. I think I supported the Minister then, which was surprising, as one or two Whips were quite keen for me not to.
Where is that bonfire of the quangos? We should not take everything on trust.
A piece of non-controversial legislation is all too easy to nod through. Much of our legislation is not sufficiently considered. I do not pretend to be either an accountant or an expert on auditing, nor do I represent a Welsh seat; but I think it important to the stature of
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the House that we produce well-thought-through, precise, detailed legislation. Questions have already been asked about various aspects of the Bill. Let me add that we have a duty to ensure that any moneys raised from our constituents and spent on whatever we decide is spent well.
2.49 pm
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