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Standing Committee F
Tuesday 14 January 2003
(Afternoon)
[Mrs. Marion Roe in the Chair]
Clause 8
Tests for registration:
utility and least suffering
Amendment proposed [this day]: No. 131, in
clause 8, page 3, line 11, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.—[Dr. Whitehead.]
2.30 pm
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
The Chairman: I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:
Amendment No. 132, in
clause 8, page 3, line 11, after 'mammals' and insert 'with dogs'.
Amendment No. 133, in
clause 8, page 3, line 13, leave out 'hunted' and insert 'controlled'.
Amendment No. 134, in
clause 8, page 3, line 26, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 135, in
clause 8, page 3, line 27, after 'mammals' and insert 'with dogs'.
Amendment No. 136, in
clause 8, page 3, line 29, leave out 'hunt' and insert 'control pests by hunting'.
Amendment No. 137, in
clause 9, page 3, line 38, leave out 'Hunting' and insert 'Pest Control with Dogs'.
Amendment No. 138, in
clause 9, page 3, line 42, leave out 'Hunting' and insert 'Pest Control with Dogs'.
Amendment No. 139, in
clause 10, page 4, line 6, leave out 'Hunting' and insert 'Pest Control with Dogs'.
Amendment No. 140, in
clause 10, page 4, line 7, leave out 'Hunting' and insert 'Pest Control with Dogs'.
Amendment No. 141, in
clause 13, page 4, line 29, leave out 'Hunting' and insert 'Pest Control with Dogs'.
Amendment No. 142, in
clause 13, page 4, line 37, leave out 'hunt' and insert 'control'.
Amendment No. 143, in
clause 13, page 5, line 3, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control activity'.
Amendment No. 144, in
clause 14, page 5, line 8, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 145, in
clause 14, page 5, line 20, leave out 'hunt' and insert 'control'.
Amendment No. 146, in
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clause 14, page 5, line 21, leave out 'hunt' and insert 'control pests with dogs'.
Amendment No. 147, in
clause 14, page 5, line 23, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 148, in
clause 14, page 5, line 25, leave out 'hunt' and insert 'control pests with dogs'.
Amendment No. 149, in
clause 14, page 5, line 30, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 150, in
clause 14, page 5, line 32, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 151, in
clause 14, page 5, line 34, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 152, in
clause 17, page 7, line 3, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 153, in
clause 17, page 7, line 21, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 154, in
clause 17, page 7, line 30, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 155, in
clause 19, page 7, line 43, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 156, in
clause 19, page 8, line 5, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 157, in
clause 19, page 8, line 14, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 158, in
clause 22, page 8, line 34, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 159, in
clause 22, page 8, line 36, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 160, in
clause 27, page 10, line 12, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 161, in
clause 27, page 10, line 18, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 162, in
clause 27, page 10, line 27, leave out 'hunts' and insert 'controls pests'.
Amendment No. 163, in
clause 27, page 10, line 29, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 164, in
clause 28, page 10, line 38, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 165, in
clause 28, page 10, line 43, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'controlling pests with dogs'.
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Amendment No. 166, in
clause 28, page 11, line 2, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 167, in
clause 28, page 11, line 11, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 168, in
clause 30, page 11, line 38, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 169, in
clause 30, page 11, line 39, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 170, in
clause 34, page 13, line 21, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 171, in
clause 34, page 13, line 25, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 172, in
clause 38, page 15, line 10, leave out 'hunts' and insert 'controls pests with dogs'.
Amendment No. 173, in
clause 38, page 15, line 12, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'controlling pests with dogs'.
Amendment No. 117, in
Amendment No. 118, in
clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 119, in
clause 2, page 1, line 9, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'Controlling pests with dogs'.
Amendment No. 120, in
clause 2, page 1, line 12, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'activity to control pests'.
Amendment No. 121, in
clause 2, page 1, line 13, leave out 'Hunting' and insert 'Pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 122, in
clause 2, page 1, line 14, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 123, in
clause 2, page 1, line 17, leave out 'hunted' and insert 'to be controlled'.
Amendment No. 124, in
clause 2, page 1, line 18, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 125, in
clause 2, page 1, line 19, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 126, in
clause 2, page 1, line 21, leave out 'Hunting' and insert 'Pest control with dogs'.
Amendment No. 127, in
clause 2, page 2, line 1, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 128, in
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clause 2, page 2, line 4, leave out 'hunted' and insert 'to be controlled'.
Amendment No. 129, in
clause 2, page 2, line 5, leave out 'hunting' and insert 'pest control'.
Amendment No. 130, in
The Minister for Rural Affairs (Alun Michael): We are dealing with amendments that seek to substitute the words ''pest control'' for the word ''hunting'' at many points in the Bill. I have considered the alternative wording since it was tabled and, because it does not alter the substance of the utility test, it would not alter the practical effect of the Bill. The test in clause 8(1) would remain the same and would clearly be about the control of pests for the purposes set out.
However, I have one reservation about making that straightforward change in terminology. Over the years, Parliament has sought to deal with the issue of hunting; to amend the Bill so that hunting was not referred to in clause 8 could be perceived as doing something rather different from what my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) seeks to do. As I understand it, he seeks to be clear about the purposes for which hunting would be allowed in future.
Having given some thought to the matter and having sought the advice of my legal advisers, I have offered my hon. Friend a form of words that would retain the reference to hunting, and therefore make it clear that we are dealing with hunting in the clause, but would go on to provide a reference to pest control. The term ''pest control'' would be inserted after the second ''is'' in line 12. We would then add the following:
''For the purposes of subsection (1) hunting is pest control if and only if it is''
and then we would go on to apply the tests. That would be a neat way of achieving what my hon. Friend is trying to do: namely, to make explicit the purposes for which any activities would be permitted after the Bill becomes law. It does not have the disadvantage of appearing to fudge the issue of whether we are dealing with hunting, which of course we are.
I believe that the Clerk has been able to make copies available to the Committee as an example, so that Members know what I am talking about. Copies are on the Table, but we cannot deal with the matter because the proposed amendment cannot be selected for discussion today. However, the proposed amendment relates to this area of the Bill, so we would be able to return to the point on Thursday. It would be to the advantage of the Committee for that amendment to be tabled today and for us to deal with it. In order to facilitate that, I suggest that my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test should not push the lead amendment.
My hon. Friend seeks to make changes in other places; he has assiduously gone through the Bill and made a judgment about where the term ''pest control'' would be better than the word ''hunting''. Frankly, I
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have not had an opportunity to sit down and consider all those places; there may be some places where the change makes sense and others where it does not. However, he would lose nothing by not pressing his point today. I believe that, in good order, we could pick up on those points during the discussion on Thursday.
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire): I want to make it clear that the amendment proposed for Thursday will be as unacceptable to us as the group of amendments that have already been tabled by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test. It makes no difference at all from our point of view.
The Minister asked me three particular questions before we broke for lunch, and I shall answer them. First, he asked me whether I genuinely believe that hunts tend to catch old and vulnerable foxes. The answer is, of course, yes. A very high proportion of foxes killed by organised hunts are old or vulnerable. Unlike the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris), we believe that hunts provide a useful service. He apparently believes that foxes should not be killed by hunts, and that it does not matter whether they are fit, young and keen or whether they are old and diseased.
Secondly, the Minister asked about the healthy fox population south of the river in Wandsworth. There is no hunting there, which he believes demonstrates that there can be a healthy population without there being hunting. I have looked into the matter, and he should know that the London borough of Wandsworth appointed an organisation called Wildlife Management Ltd. to look after the fox population in Wandsworth. Since 1 March 2002—about nine months—it has trapped and killed 2,717 foxes in the London borough of Wandsworth alone. There is a healthy population south of the river because Government-appointed organisations, which are operating entirely in accordance with the Minister's plans, have killed 2,717 foxes in Wandsworth.
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