Courts Bill [Lords] [back to previous text]

Mr. David Kidney (Stafford): I am glad that the hon. Gentleman concedes that access to justice means a lot more than the geographical location of courtrooms. Although it would be nice if everything were in clause 1, what is wrong with that being in clause 30, which acknowledges not only the desirability of accessibility, but the need for it? Mr. Heath: It should be in both. I am grateful to the Government for the amendment that they have accepted to clause 30; it is a significant move forward, which will have an effect in practical terms, and I do not decry that. However, when setting out his general duties in maintaining the system of courts, it is obvious that the Lord Chancellor should apply that criterion when considering any aspect of the system, not simply the narrow issue of the position of courts. There may be other factors involved. If the Government are genuine in accepting the case for accessibility as an important factor in placing courthouses—and I have no reason to suppose that they are not—they should have no difficulty in accepting that as a general duty. It is one among several. The trouble with the words ''efficient and effective'' is that they can be interpreted in several ways. We all know that things that are efficient and effective for the deliverers of a service may be far from efficient and affective for its recipients. We are asking that the same degree of consideration be given to the interests of court users as to the interests of those who deliver the service, who may wish to do so in an efficient, effective and economical way. Evidence shows that that has not always been the case in the past, and that there is a risk that it will be even less so in the future, because of the inevitable detachment. Any sensible reading of the Bill suggests that it is inevitable that there will be detachment of local communities from the administration of the Court Service, despite the role of the courts boards, which we will discuss later. This is an important matter of principle. It is a clear recommendation of the Select Committee on the Lord Chancellor's Department, whose members picked up the wording direct from Professor Bridges of the Column Number: 007 university of Warwick. I cannot improve on what he suggested as a suitable amendment, and that is why I tabled the precise words in amendment No. 1. This is the touchstone of whether the Government are genuine about wanting to see a court system that works well not only for the practitioners but for the users. Amendment No. 109 would add to the responsibilities in the reporting structure that the Government have accepted as a principle under subsection (4)—that the Lord Chancellor should give an annual report on the way in which he has discharged his general duty. Amendment No. 109 would ensure that as part of that reporting process, the Lord Chancellor—or whoever is in charge of the courts—went out and asked people, ''How is this for you? Is it working? Can you get to your courts, and are they serving the local community that you represent?'' Such a safeguard would give us more chance of creating a system responsive to local communities, rather than ignorant of their needs. 9.45 am There is ample evidence that even under the present system ignorance of local circumstances exists. I heard a story—I have no reason to suppose that it is not true—of one poor chap in mid-Wales who ended up walking 14 miles to attend a court hearing in Aberystwyth because his local court had closed down. That is unacceptable; it is not local justice, or what we mean by an accessible court system. I accept that that is an extreme case, but even in my area there are proposals to close Frome magistrates court. There is another proposal in the neighbouring constituency to close Wells court. The effect of those closures will be that people will have to travel to Bath or Yeovil to have their cases heard. How do people get to Bath or Yeovil with the public transport system in its present state? My village has only one bus a week, and it goes to Frome, not to Bath or Yeovil. How might an 18-year-old defendant charged with taking a car without permission, who does not have the benefit of a car to get him to court, get to his hearing in Yeovil when there is no other transport available? Most youths accused of taking a car without permission would take another car without permission to get to court—and they would be in trouble again. Surely that is not what we want to promote in a sensible judicial system. This is an important group of amendments. I hope that the Minister will say, ''Yes, we accept amendment No. 1 now.'' Then we could stop this argument. If he does not say that, I predict that it will return again and again. There is already a queue of Bills in another place waiting to reach their conclusion, and if the Minister digs his heels in, this will be another. He will probably say that in principle he does not disagree with what we are saying. However, wisdom dictates—even for a Minister who is new to his brief, which I know makes things more difficult—that he agree to my proposal, which I have reason to suppose will be Column Number: 008 supported by other Opposition Members. We can then move on in good order, having established an important principle about the locality and accessibility of justice in this country. Mr. Hawkins: I entirely agree with what the hon. Gentleman said about this group of amendments, and I shall expand on it. There are a couple of Conservative amendments in the group, and amendment No. 3, which was not selected, would have had an effect similar to the Liberal Democrat amendment No. 1. We agree with the hon. Gentleman's comments about the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Lord Chancellor's Department. That must be the only Select Committee in history to be set up, produce one report and then have to change its name immediately—that is another one of the many bizarre features of the Government's botched reshuffle. Of course I do not blame the new Minister for that—this hot potato has been dumped in his lap, and I do not suppose that he is happy with that, but he will make the best of a bad job. As he said, he will be as simple and strategic as he can. Members of the official Opposition feel as strongly about this as the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) does. My hon. Friends and I have been asking questions about it at just about every Lord Chancellor's Department Question Time for many years, not merely for the past two weeks or months. Since they came to power, this Government have closed many more magistrates courts. I want to explain a little bit about this closure mania. As the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome said, and the Minister will no doubt say, there were closures under the previous Conservative Government. However, the fact remains that it was not acceptable for the Minister's predecessors to repeat parrot fashion, as they so often did in successive question times, the phrase, ''Well, these are local decisions taken by the magistrates courts committees. It's nothing to do with us. It isn't our responsibility.'' That was the response so many times—the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues heard it, too. The Government are responsible, as the hon. Gentleman said, for the severe constraints and tight guidance under which those magistrates courts committees have been working. They have been boxed in and forced by the trend of Government policy, which in my view has been misconceived for many years under Governments of both parties. There is an abnegation of the Government's responsibility to provide local justice. That is why the group of amendments is so vital, why Professor Bridges said what he did to the Select Committee, and why they endorsed it—and that is why the amendments should be made. Unless the Government have, on reflection, seen sense and accepted the amendments as they stand, or some version of them, the official Opposition will wish to vote on amendment No. 31 when we get to clause 21. That would take the matter a stage further, because it would mean that court buildings would not close if Column Number: 009 local justices did not want them to, and give them the final say, regardless of the guidance, the circulars and all that nonsense. We believe that local justice is so vital that it should take precedence over all that guidance and all those circulars. I am sure that the Minister will respond with a lot of detail on how the decisions have been made by magistrates courts committees. Nevertheless, I want to explain something. In response to questions from my hon. Friend the shadow Attorney-General and me, we elicited a full list of more than 100 local magistrates courts that have closed since the Government came to power. Opposition Members feel strongly about that. Those closures include the magistrates court in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Johnson) and various courts in other constituencies, including some in Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire. I shall talk about one or two of those. When I received the list I remembered appearing as a barrister, as I used to do for many years in the midlands, at various courts on the list. I know that those courts provided local justice. They may not have been the brand spanking new court buildings that bureaucrats like to plan and work in, but they did have the majesty of the law. Most of those buildings were historic as well as local, and local people respected them. Some modern box designed in the 1990s or 2000 does not provide that, although it may have wonderful facilities for the bureaucrats and officials. Gareth Thomas (Clwyd, West): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr. Hawkins: I shall give way in a moment, but I want to develop my point first. I am not surprised that I am provoking some reaction, but I want to stress how strongly I feel. Let us consider some of the courts on the list in historic towns in rural areas, such as Stow-on-the-Wold, Lichfield, Wombourne—for the benefit of those who do not know it, I should explain that that is to the west of Wolverhampton—Evesham, Droitwich and Bridgnorth. I appeared in all those courts for many years, and they provided genuine local justice. It is nothing short of a scandal, which will stand to the discredit of the Government, that they have abandoned the whole concept of local justice.

©Parliamentary copyright 2003	Prepared 26 June 2003