18 JUNE 2003  

MR MIKE FELL OBE, MR NIGEL PRYKE AND MR PETER BOND

  Q460  Mrs Ellman: How would you say you are doing up to now?

  Mr Fell: Certainly the accident levels have plateaud in recent years. I think the first year has seen some progress. From our membership point of view, unfortunately the number of fatalities and serious accidents has increased slightly, but the other accidents within the membership have reduced. The overall trend is down, but that is only based on those returns which our members provide and not the whole of the industry.

  Q461  Mrs Ellman: Do you see self handling as a problem?

  Mr Fell: It depends on the circumstances. A lot of self handling takes place now very satisfactorily. You can get very sophisticated vessels, for example with aggregate discharge equipment, where the crew are specially trained to handle that equipment. At the opposite end of the scale, you can get ships handling on ships with derricks, where the crew are not competent at handling. It is up to the monitoring port authority concerned to make sure that any bad practices do not happen within the port. I think we can do that within existing legislation. Some self handling takes place at the moment perfectly safely.

  Q462  Mrs Ellman: Are you satisfied with the general standards of monitoring of what is happening in ports in terms of safety?

  Mr Fell: Monitoring by the Health and Safety Executive?

  Q463  Mrs Ellman: Yes.

  Mr Fell: Yes; I do not think there has been a more intense monitoring than there is at the present time by the Health and Safety Executive. A lot of proactive monitoring is taking place throughout the ports.

  Q464  Clive Efford: Do the companies which are not members of your organisation cause you any concern? Do you think they are going to be a help or a hindrance in hitting your targets?

  Mr Fell: We certainly try to encourage them to come along to the Safer Ports Initiative Regional Events. There must be companies with good and bad standards. We like to think that our subscribers will adopt a very good standard. I cannot say that all those companies which are not members adopt a good or bad standard because I do not have the information. There must be some considerable variance. Nothing is ever equal, is it? There are extremes at opposite ends of the spectrum.

  Q465  Clive Efford: You said earlier on that for a small company it is roughly £10 per week for membership. Considering the safety issues we are discussing, that does not seem a lot.

  Mr Fell: No, it does not to me. I would agree with that.

  Q466  Clive Efford: Do those companies which do not join your organisation give you any cause for concern?

  Mr Fell: I think probably the answer to that is yes. If we do not know of the companies and we do not know the detail of the companies, then we should be concerned about them. The majority of the industry is covered through our membership. It is very difficult. Ports Skills and Safety Ltd is not an enforcing organisation; we have no statutory or mandatory powers. We have the support of the majority of the industry and it is up to the individual employers to see that they comply with the legislation, not ourselves. We like to encourage companies who are not members to attend our presentations and the regional events to support the Safer Ports Initiative, but beyond that there is very little we can do as an organisation.

  Q467  Clive Efford: I do not suggest you are not doing everything you possibly can as an organisation; I do not suggest that for one moment. Do you alert the HSE to companies which are not members of your association? Do you think that is something they should be aware of?

  Mr Fell: That was actually discussed at this morning's board meeting and they will be getting that information very shortly.

  Q468  Clive Efford: What proportion of your membership subscribes to the passport scheme?

  Mr Fell: If I may say so, I think there was some confusion in the previous discussion on the passport scheme. Two things were referred to. One was the industry voluntary code of practice for non-permanent employees, which PSS and its predecessor PSO were very much in the forefront of introducing and that is based on adequate induction training for non-permanent employees.

  Mr Bond: That is exactly what it is. It requires people to be fit and competent before they are put to work and also it requires them to carry a card to say that they are attending induction training courses. That is the code of practice. The passport scheme which has been referred to is one which has been developed and piloted with Associated British Ports in conjunction with the Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (IOSH) and one of our work groups has also fed into that. They are going to be introducing this new passport scheme into all of their ABP ports probably by the end of the summer. That is not just aimed at non-permanent employees, but everybody involved in cargo handling in ABP controlled areas.

  Mr Fell: Not just ABP direct employees, but other stevedores who are licensed to work on ABP port estates. This scheme is in embryo with Associated British Ports, it is not up and running yet. We are aware of it. We have not debated it properly in the PSS board and we do not know whether all of the membership will be behind the ABP scheme. Once it is up and running, it will be operated by IOSH and it will be open to the entire industry to tap into that and join it.

  Q469  Clive Efford: You seem to be saying that the answers we got earlier on from HSE suggesting that the passport scheme was in widespread use in the industry—

  Mr Fell: The voluntary code is in widespread use for induction training for non-permanent employees; that is in widespread use and there is a card associated with that to say that the non-permanent employee has adequate induction training. Above and beyond that, the ABP type passport scheme is for all employees within its ports and that scheme is about to be introduced and will be available to other port operators to tap into it if they so wish. We have not fully discussed the implications of that within PSS because it is something which is just being evolved.

  Q470  Clive Efford: Will that include casual labour?

  Mr Fell: Yes.

  Q471  Clive Efford: It will include every employee. Can I address the earlier point? How does the self-handling issue impact on the code of practice or the passport scheme in terms of undermining safety standards?

  Mr Fell: Where there is self handling at the moment in ports that would be covered . . . I do not think it would fall in either, to be absolutely frank with you.

  Q472  Chairman: It is a quite relevant point. If you, as an industry, are trying to up your safety game and if you are insisting on people, both casual and core employees, having at least a basic level of training—

  Mr Fell: Then there could be a gap, it is true.

  Q473  Chairman: —and self handling by crews who are just coming in with the relevant ships is going to have a tremendous impact on safety.

  Mr Fell: I agree; that needs some form of control.

  Mr Bond: Our special work group is now reviewing the code. It was first introduced in October 2000 and they have decided to review it. I shall pass these comments on to them because they are very valid.

  Chairman: Gentlemen, you have been very helpful. Thank you very much indeed.