18 JUNE 2003  

MR NICK STARLING, MR GRAEME HENDERSON, MR TIM GALLOWAY, MR RON WEBB AND MR PETER LANDLES

  Q380  Chairman: Is there any particular evidence to suggest that some ports are safer than others?

  Mr Galloway: I do not have that information to hand. There may be anecdotal evidence to that effect.

  Q381  Chairman: Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence they want to give us? Are there particular types of ports with a good or a bad record?

  Mr Galloway: It is more the case that each particular type of port has its own hazards and risks that it needs to manage. In container ports the hazards and risks are slightly different to those handling bulk freight.

  Q382  Chairman: But you have no indication of one type of transport industry which is worse than any other.

  Mr Galloway: No, not in that much detail. We could say, for instance, that it would be quite difficult because some ports will handle a mixture of freight; some will be handling bulk, a few containers, some break bulk, whereas others will specialise heavily in just freight containers for instance.

  Q383  Chairman: Are your figures on safety in ports better than those which were given to us in Focus on Ports in 2000?

  Mr Galloway: I would not want to say the figures were better. They are perhaps collated on different bases from those of Ports Skills and Safety Ltd (PSS).

  Q384  Chairman: In what sense? Give us some idea?

  Mr Galloway: Ports Skills and Safety Ltd collect statistics from their members and they collect their statistics on the basis of a calendar year. Our figures are collated from accidents which are reported to us from anybody, in any industry. They are also collected on the basis of the financial year and those are the main differences.

  Q385  Chairman: So that is 31 March to 1 April.

  Mr Galloway: Yes.

  Q386  Chairman: So that might make a marginal difference. Have you looked to see whether there is any very startling difference between your figures and those figures?

  Mr Galloway: There is a difference clearly in this year's figures: the number of accidents reported by PSS is somewhat smaller than ours. I have not been able and would not want to comment on what the reason for that difference might be.

  Q387  Chairman: You are not too concerned about the quality of the figures.

  Mr Galloway: To my mind both sets of statistics have a valid basis. What we are both looking for are trends to go down over a period of time. We want to see reductions in both numbers of accidents and in accident rates.

  Q388  Clive Efford: Mr Webb, are you concerned about the quality of the safety statistics?

  Mr Webb: I am indeed. May I start not from a qualified position, but the industrial view? My union finds it difficult to achieve statistics where we can find straightforward information on exactly how many workers are employed at a particular port and how many workers are core workers and how many are casual labour. We find it extremely difficult to receive that simple information. In reference to casualisation being on the increase, ever increasing, throughout the industry, I would start from a basic point that I want to establish that fact in the first place and then look at how the statistics are compiled on the back of that for them to receive any credibility. I am somewhat taken aback that the view is being expressed that injuries and accidents and even fatalities seem to be on the increase, which was suggested. Certainly that is not our view of it. The difficulty I have is that I could not today clarify with evidence to the Chairman of the Select Committee that that is not the case.

  Q389  Clive Efford: Are you saying that the increasing use of casual labour is making it difficult to gather the statistics and find out just exactly what accident rates are and what is going on in the industry?

  Mr Webb: I am indeed.

  Q390  Clive Efford: Ports Skills and Safety Ltd have set targets for 2005 for port related deaths to be reduced and the number of reportable accidents to be reduced. How is that being monitored?

  Mr Webb: My understanding is that currently that certainly is being monitored, but I do not know the answer to your question. My local officials are currently playing a role on that particular forum and I am conscious that the new structure is only just settling in and that it is going to take some time for that structure to work. The reports I am receiving back from my full-time officers are that on the whole the structures seem to be genuine and they seem to be of value. The one part of the structure I am a little bit confused about is the top level structure which seems to be dominated by the employers throughout the industry.

  Q391  Clive Efford: Do you think their targets will be met?

  Mr Webb: I am of the view that I hope they will, but we do not think they will be, no. That is the information I am receiving from my officers.

  Q392  Clive Efford: Would you say that currently you have access to the information to allow you to assess whether they are being met or not?

  Mr Webb: I would say certainly we do not have access to the information, nothing like it.

  Q393  Clive Efford: Can I ask HSE whether anyone has any comment to make about the suggestion that the increasing use of casual labour is making it difficult to monitor the situation in terms of safety record?

  Mr Galloway: Certainly the information we get on the number of employees in our particular industry as with all government numbers is based on the Office of National Statistics data and I suspect that they may not include people in their figures who would be regarded as casual workers, agency workers, not permanent employees, whatever you want to call them. From our perspective, we regard the safety of people who are agency workers, casual workers, to be of equal importance as permanently employed workers. We draw no distinctions.

  Q394  Clive Efford: Do you have any concerns about the level of recognised safety training that staff have?

  Mr Galloway: Certainly the position has improved with the introduction of passport schemes in the ports industry and I know that Ports Skills and Safety Ltd, under the Safe Ports Initiative are taking forward work to improve the quality of safety training both for agency workers, non-permanent employees, and permanently employed people including supervisors and managers who are an important link in the chain in ensuring safety standards.

  Q395  Clive Efford: Given the nature of the work force and what we have just heard from Mr Webb about casual labour is that something that realistically you can implement in terms of the passport scheme?

  Mr Galloway: It is for the industry to take forward that solution, for the person who has the duty to protect, which is the employer, to ensure that staff, whether they are permanent or agency, are properly trained and know the hazards and risks and know what to do to protect themselves.

  Q396  Chairman: I do not think that Mr Efford was doubting that. What he was asking really was whether you have any evidence that there is a difference, is there a lighter accident rate for casuals than there is for those who are permanently working in the ports?

  Mr Galloway: I am afraid I do not. Because of the way we collect information, there is currently no means whereby we can reliably tell from an injury report whether somebody was a casual worker or permanently employed. A review of the way we gather that information has been proposed and that is one of the issues which is up for consideration as part of that review.

  Mr Webb: May I invite one of my colleagues to say a few words on the issue of the port passports, because I think we need to come back on that particular point?

  Q397  Chairman: You have caught me, because we do not normally do this. If it is evidence which will be useful to us, he had better draw up a chair and tell us who he is.

  Mr Webb: Mr Peter Landles, who is a union representative down at the port of Felixstowe and also Chair of our General Executive Council.

  Mr Landles: The port passport system is a new idea which has been brought to the Ports Council. It is not universal and it is certainly not recognised in most of the permanent ports. We at Felixstowe employ permanent employees who have a proper training programme which is quite rigorous and long. However, we are concerned about how good a port passport is and how universal it is and what training is given in that in a modern port today the construction of the cranes and gantries and trans-tainers and all the machinery is of high quality and very expensive. We are not convinced about the training given in the port passport: it might be basic training but you could not work in the port industry, certainly in a container terminal working the gantry crane, unless in our port you had had probably at least 12 months training and at least six weeks to two months basic training on the gantry crane system.

  Chairman: That is helpful. Do you want to stay there for a minute?

  Q398  Mr Stevenson: Can I come back to the information about accidents? Focus on Ports, the 2000 information we had, said "It is not possible to establish precise statistics for numbers of dock accidents. Formerly information on dock accidents was available from the Port Safety Organisation". However, we are advised that the difficulty arises because dock accidents are included in statistics for related industries, sea and coastal water industries. That is part, if not a significant part, of the problem, is it not? Are you working on refining that so that the statistics can be identified in detail?

  Mr Galloway: The accident statistics I have quoted come from a particular standard industrial classification SIC63220. Those accidents will not include people who visit ports, who are not working at the port, but could still be injured there for instance. That would include people like road hauliers. As I understand it, there is work going on in the department in what has become known as the Ports Manpower Group, to look at issues which I believe the Committee may have been concerned about in the past, the economic footprint of ports. HSE and, I believe, PSS, are taking part in that work. I believe some work has been done trying to identify what information may be out there and further work is ongoing.

  Q399  Mr Stevenson: The Department for Transport are involved in this, are they not?

  Mr Galloway: Indeed.