MONDAY 1 JULY 2002

MS SUE STREET, MR GREG DYKE, MR JOHN SMITH AND MS ZARIN PATEL

  200. The Capita switch was requested by Consignia?
  (Mr Dyke) They were losing too much money doing it.

  201. They were giving the business away?
  (Mr Dyke) Effectively, yes.
  (Mr Smith) They reported losses in their accounts of £67 million.

  202. Ms Street, on page 20, figure ten, it shows you the difference between the ways of estimating how many potential licence payers there are. It does give a brief explanation. I am interested in the revised model. In the notes underneath, it gives a brief explanation of how that is arrived at by simply adding in more licensable places. How is that additional information arrived at? What data is used?
  (Ms Street) We used the British Audience Research Board data because it is the largest survey available and it is the industry standard. What this chart shows is what the sensitivity is if you use different kinds of data and that is quite important because it tells us it is an estimate, not a measure.

  203. Presumably that particular survey does not give you information about addresses? It simply gives you information about people who watch?
  (Ms Street) That data is not the only data that is used. Relative to these other columns in the chart, we use the BARB but this has been in revision since 1998 and it is supervised by the Royal Statistical Society. It is pretty complex but in the end one has to take a view.

  204. It must be based on information somewhere along the line which relates to addresses of properties rather than the number of people in a given area who should hold a licence.
  (Ms Street) Yes, it certainly does. We are looking at 26 million properties, rather than individuals.

  205. Where do you get the information about the addresses of those properties from?
  (Ms Patel) Our data is derived from two very comprehensive, commercially available sources. One is the postal address file which the Royal Mail keeps for all our letters. The other is the electoral roll. We also buy other external sources of data—for example, businesses where we are partnering with a company called Blue Sheet to provide names and addresses and sites. Hotels would be another kind of partner. It is a combination of commercially available sources and the electoral roll where we actually find people's addresses.

  206. Have you built into the model the potential effect of people being able to exclude themselves from the public electoral roll?
  (Ms Patel) No. That is something we are addressing at the moment with the recent proposed regulations on the electoral role, but with the postal address file and other sources of data the loss of the electoral role may not be significant.

  207. It should have some impact.
  (Ms Patel) It would have some impact, I suspect.

  208. I realise there are difficulties about data protection but have you thought of data sharing with other utilities and local authorities?
  (Ms Patel) Indeed we have. Home Movers, which is a website with changes of address, we have an arrangement with them. We cannot share our data because we are obliged not to do so by our transfer of undertakings responsibilities. That is an unequal partnership. Why would British Gas share their data with us if we cannot share ours with them?

  209. Has your sponsoring department considered getting some legislative change to enable you to do that?
  (Ms Patel) We will talk about that.
  (Mr Smith) It is a good idea.

  210. Moving on slightly to the regional variations, I assume that the trend as shown in the chart on page 22, figure 11, is the same. In other words, those regions are all relative to one another the same. The figures will have changed?
  (Ms Patel) Yes.

  211. Mr Dyke said specifically that it was specifically the city of Belfast.
  (Mr Dyke) It is Northern Ireland. That 17.6 figure used to be 31%, so it has come down. We have targeted Northern Ireland in particular.

  212. Have you had any dialogue with the electoral registration officer for Northern Ireland about this, about whether or not factors he has to take into account are relevant to this figure?
  (Ms Patel) I do not think we have but that sounds like an interesting idea.

  213. The reason I say that is that there is a particular problem with electoral fraud—ie, there are more people on the register than exist in Northern Ireland. It may be that that inflates the figures you are using. They may be able to help you to see whether your statistics are effective. Ms Street, in responding to the problem about the penalties available, referred to the review of the criminal courts in England and Wales which was undertaken by the Lord Chancellor, the Attorney General and the Home Secretary and the possibility of fixed penalty notices. I know she has considerable experience of the criminal justice system, not as a victim or a perpetrator of crime but in her Home Office experience. Surely she should be able to offer an opinion as to whether she thinks that would be a sensible route to pursue?
  (Ms Street) I do not know if you would like me to offer a personal opinion?

  Chairman: Yes, please.
  (Ms Street) I am quite keen to pursue these discussions with the LCD and the Home Office but I do not think it is the only answer. I would like to look particularly at the DVLA model, but we are a long way from registering our televisions in the way we register our cars. There is quite a lot of innovative policy thinking that we could do around Lord Justice Auld's recommendations, not least because it would remove some business from the courts which might help them to be more efficient.

  214. On the general question of licence evasion and the relative ineffectual way the magistrates' courts deal with these cases, have any representations been made to the Lord Chancellor about that?
  (Ms Street) I do not think I would want to go on record as saying that magistrates have been ineffectual in any way.

  215. I would.
  (Ms Street) I have spoken with the Lord Chancellor's Department about what more could be done. In the end, the possible fine is £1,000. The level of the fine is a matter for the magistrates. It is probably worth noting that even the average fine with costs is still considerably more than the cost of the licence and many people are in severe difficulties in paying that £140.

  216. Coming back to the mysterious situation about the unacceptability of the NAO to the BBC as an auditor, Mr Dyke, your opinions are sought by the government on a wide range of issues. On how many occasions in the 18 months since you have been director general has the overseas service complained to you that the NAO has interfered with the editorial freedom of their activities?
  (Mr Dyke) That has not occurred.

  217. Ms Street, how long have you been at the Department?
  (Ms Street) Barely six months.

  218. In that six months, I assume you have not had any complaints that the NAO has been a threat to the editorial freedom of the overseas service.
  (Ms Street) Categorically not.

  219. I would like you to go back to your Department and for Mr Dyke to go back to the BBC and each of you to tell us how many complaints you have had in, say, the last six years that the NAO has in any way by auditing the overseas service represented a threat to the editorial freedom of the overseas service. All I am asking is whether you have had any complaints in the last six years on that subject. Will you bear with me and get that information?
  (Ms Street) I certainly will and I am sure, if it is anything at all, it is not going to be large.[6]