WEDNESDAY 20 NOVEMBER 2002

MR HUGH ORDE AND MR DUNCAN MCCAUSLAND

  300. It is more convenient for you rather than essential.
  (Mr Orde) Absolutely; yes.

  301. Do you have concerns that the proposal to exempt from regulation only those guns with a muzzle energy of less than one joule, which would include BB guns, could cause you problems with the whole administration of this proposal?
  (Mr Orde) In broad terms we are unusual in the sense that we are already license air weapons, so we are quite used to doing it. We have a system in place and whilst we currently do it over three joules, to drop it down is probably manageable within the administrative state. I shall let Duncan just clarify that. The only problem we experience is that at the cheaper end of the market weapons over three joules are not numbered in any way, so we find ourselves issuing licences for unnumbered weapons. In terms of the administrative process we can manage it within our own system.

  302. Is there any issue about whether people actually see these as weapons because you are actually lowering it and taking in BB guns which are sold as glorified toys? Could you see that as a possible problem, that people unknowingly will be outside the law if they are not aware of what this weapon is or has the capability to do?
  (Mr Orde) There may be a marketing and advertising issue to make sure people are fully aware of what their responsibilities are and likewise on those who sell these items. There are ways of bringing that into play that I have no particular difficulty with it. My colleagues would frankly quite like to license some air weapons but the numbers simply make it prohibitive here.

  303. In your view would it be possible to take an air weapon of one joule or less energy and convert it into a lethal weapon?
  (Mr Orde) Anything which is a gun in the sense that it has a barrel and a mechanism is convertible. I am not an expert. We have numerous examples, in fact today we have recovered a number of weapons which without doubt have the capability to be converted from something innocent to something which is not innocent. There are some very able and capable individuals in Northern Ireland who have a long history of being able to do this.

  304. May I go back to the question of referees? I was trying to think this through. The Chairman made the point about someone living in the south of England serving as a referee but I think I am right in suggesting that the Gun Trade Association said referees in Great Britain or overseas. Given that Northern Ireland is a relatively small community with certain particular difficulties at the moment, would you be satisfied to have to accept references from people who lived overseas to the point where it would actually be quite difficult to check on the validity of those references?
  (Mr Orde) That is the point I was making. If it was so worded and someone put in an application which relied on a referee from another country and that was within the Order, then they would have to expect a substantial amount of delay to their certificate being granted, whereas if they could find someone more local then we could progress it more quickly. To some extent if they do that it would without doubt delay the certificate being granted because quite properly we would want to check them out. If that were through Interpol, that would be a substantial period of time.

  305. And presumably at greater cost.
  (Mr Orde) Without a doubt and this is a loss leader for me at the moment.

  Chairman: That is why I did not include the word "overseas", because I could see that would give difficulties. I was just trying to make a point which perhaps one or two other colleagues might have made about the United Kingdom.

  306. We have been told that firearms work in Northern Ireland is under-resourced, partly because it is not under central control and officers are called away on other duties in their local units. Is this assessment correct and if so what plans do you have to correct the problem?
  (Mr Orde) Currently the practice is that a number of these enquiries are carried out by uniformed officers from the areas in which the enquiries happen to take place. For example, in Fermanagh a substantial amount of ordinary police duty is currently spent doing this. This Order allows me to organise differently. What I shall do is mirror England to a large extent. I hold a shotgun licence in England and all the checks are carried out by a civilian employee of the local constabulary, very effectively, who is properly trained and covers a wider area. It is economies of scale on the back of this Order which will make us more able to deliver it, if you add onto that the new information technology which we are building in to handle the process. I am comfortable that we can deliver it.

  307. We have also heard concerns that the firearms licensing is not automatically alerted by other parts of PSNI to incidents or court judgments which would lead to a certificate holder being considered a risk, or even being prohibited. Do you accept this statement?
  (Mr Orde) Currently we could do better frankly. It is a manual system at the moment. The new IT will deal with it. It will be integrated into the criminal information system, so it will flag up automatically. In the meantime we can get our paper system better, but it is a hope for the future and yes, we could do better at the moment and we shall work at it. There is a long-term solution which is an IT based one.

  308. What steps do you take to ensure that firearms licensing officers are notified of incidents or judgments picked up by other divisions?
  (Mr Orde) That is exactly how it will be done. It will be done through the IT. The IT will be linked, so that is how it will work. I have only been in post 82 days and I have to say my IT needs updating across the police. This has already been planned and it is being overseen by DeLoitte Touche who are looking at the system and we are comfortable we can deliver it.
  (Mr McCausland) It would mirror very much the systems which are currently in position on the mainland where, when officers are attending a particular call the database for firearms held in an area can be flagged up to the controller so the officers going in can be alerted that there is a firearm registered to that house. Similarly in the courts, in terms of anyone convicted for something, the database can be linked to feed back to us for a conviction so that it rapidly speeds the whole system up and makes it far safer for everyone.

  309. The power at the moment in Article 45(2) of the 1981 Order, which authorises you to authorise police officers to enter and search premises, seize firearms, prohibited weapons and ammunition, is going to be removed in this new Order. Are you content with that?
  (Mr Orde) Yes. If you look at how we intend to restructure and use civilians for a lot of this work, the power would not have been of much use anyway in that I cannot authorise civilians to carry out these tasks. Article 55 gives me the necessary powers to carry out those sorts of duties. I am happy to lose Article 45 provided I keep 55.

  310. Is there anything else you want to say to us on this subject while you are both here?
  (Mr Orde) A couple of observations very briefly. One of the reasons I am here is that we take this particular piece of legislation very seriously and whilst a lot of work has been done by my colleague ACC McCausland, I thought it important that I turn up to say that I do take this seriously and it is a very useful piece of legislation which does balance public safety with the needs of the legitimate shooting fraternity. I would say that where there is a strain between the two, and I am mindful of the comments around Shell and May, I am duty bound currently to err on the side of public safety, which is why we like to make those statements.

  Chairman: I think there are very few people who would disagree with that statement. Mr Orde, Mr McCausland, thank you very much indeed for coming. We are particularly grateful to you.