WEDNESDAY 2 APRIL 2003

MR DENIS A STANLEY, MRS JUNE BUTLER, MR MICHAEL CASSIDY AND MR GEOFF NEAL

  60. Has this affected certain constituencies specifically or certain demographic groups disproportionately?
  (Ms Butler) No. We could not possibly comment on demographic groups. I can only comment on statistics in relation to each of the area electoral offices. The level of people turning up for hearings and being put on the register as a result varies from almost 60% of people turning up to hearings in Ballymoney and Newtownards, whereas overall in the last four months the lowest would be Belfast where 33% of people turned up. The average is actually 42% and the majority of offices hit above that target.

  61. Electoral registration problems are certainly quite serious in Britain and there has been a sense in which we have ignored Northern Ireland because Norther Ireland used to have full canvassing and its problem, if anything, was electoral fraud and over-registration. It could be that the problems which have traditionally been there in Britain are easier to see within Northern Ireland. There used to be old Office of Population and Census survey work which was done in this country which indicated that registration was bad in areas where people lived in bed-sitter land, private rented accommodation, poor working class areas and urban areas and a lot of that was influential in the 2000 Representation of the Peoples Act which introduced rolling registers in an attempt to try to tackle that particular type of problem. My question might really be more for The Electoral Commission in these areas but do you find that these types of problems are reflected within your own work?
  (Mr Stanley) I am not sure that we do. We have not perhaps got the depth of analysis about people on the register or not on the register which might allow us to address some of the questions. It is difficult to see how we could identify groups which we had not managed to get onto the register. Our approach has really been one to address every single person who might be on the register and get them on, but we do not have the information to hand which would answer the question in the detail you are perhaps asking for.
  (Ms Butler) The lowest return of any ward in Northern Ireland was in Reverend Smyth's constituency in Belfast South, which is traditional bed-sitter land in the university area of Belfast, the Botanic ward.
  (Mr Stanley) I would also say that under the present legislation students can register at their home address and vote elsewhere. There are special arrangements for students which may perhaps have had an impact on the student areas which are around the university and Reverend Smyth's constituency.

  62. We have difficulty in knowing how many people are missing from registers. One method to gain some indication is that there are population figures which are published each year, usually in local government areas, and if you take those who are over 16Ú or 16Û—I am not sure which it is—to include attainers, you get an estimated population which is likely to be on the register, if you take off the people who might not be eligible because they are overseas and do not register. Do you know any work of that type which applies to Northern Ireland which would be useful in order to see the likely gap between those who are registered electorally and those who could be potentially?
  (Mr Stanley) We have not carried out the depth of analysis that would be necessary to look at that. We have spoken to the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency who look after the census and we have been doing some comparative figures there to identify where the trend should be. We are just as concerned as everyone, that we should have a starting point as to what we would expect to have on the register and then we can reasonably compare it with what we end up with. There are some difficulties in the figures which the Registrar General has. We have names and numbers on our register that they do not have and vice-versa. Clearly there is a difficulty there. We also feel that there is the same problem with the Registrar getting information during the census from individuals that we are now having and it is an area we wish to develop further. We have very close links with the Registrar General, with the Statistics and Research Agency and that is certainly an area we wish to pursue.

  63. According to your experience on the ground with this, do you feel that extra problems are being created by the requirement of the national insurance number and date of birth? I imagine the national insurance number more than the date of birth, but in any case the date of birth was required for attainers.
  (Mr Stanley) May I first mention the national insurance number? One of the difficulties with the national insurance number is ensuring that we get the right number and this is becoming apparent when people apply for the electoral identity card where they have to quote the national insurance number and we then check it against our records and perhaps find that there are errors. The errors are twofold. The errors are those errors where people have completed a form for an electoral identity card and they have the wrong number on that one, but they have given us the right number on registration. We also have the problem the other way round where they are now giving us the correct number and the number they gave us on registration was wrong. An exercise has to be conducted to ensure that all the national insurance numbers are as accurate as can be. We are carrying that forward with the Social Security Agency in Northern Ireland. We have an arrangement with them to check national insurance numbers. That is something we are taking forward. It has been hampered because of the use of rolling registration. Those are the practical issues. It has been suggested to me by a number of MLAs from Stormont that the use of the national insurance number dissuades people from registering who are either in the grey economy or committing some sort of benefit fraud, but we have no way of knowing whether that is the case or not. There seems to be a feeling amongst some MLAs that by asking for this information, those people who would prefer that information was not passed on to us are simply not registering.

  64. Initially when the legislation was going through the Commons, the government was reluctant to include national insurance numbers within it, perhaps because they felt unsure about the reliability in all types of cases. In terms of the checks you are talking of relating to the system, are you having any problems which arise from that?
  (Mr Stanley) We have not got as far along that particular route as we wished to have done, but we have a very good relationship with the Social Security Agency and the legislation does allow us to check with the Social Security Agency the details that we hold against their details. It does not allow the Social Security Agency to give us details. If we ask for the national insurance number of a person, they cannot tell us, but we can ask them to confirm that the national insurance number of this person is X and they will then say yes, or no. Where that is the case, and indeed we have some already, particularly with the electoral identity card coming in, we take those forward with the individuals to try to establish exactly what their proper details are. The other side of that particular coin is that the use of the national insurance number and date of birth and signature will be of increasing benefit to us over a period of time. Each year we carry out the annual canvass and people provide that information, the more accurate our register will be; the more time we have to check them against the Social Security Agency, the more accurate our register will be. I do not think we would expect in the first year or so to have all of the national insurance numbers absolutely right. Over a period of time, perhaps three or four years, we are much more likely to have a more valid database which can be relied upon.
  (Ms Butler) At the moment our focus is on those people who have declared on registration and on their electoral identity application that they do not have a national insurance number and they are obviously of an age that should have. Also we are focusing on those people who our area officers feel may be suspect. We are taking those forward. I am also working with the Social Security Agency on the possibility of developing an IT programme which will make automatic checking of numbers much easier.

  65. The rolling register is a means of trying to correct any shortfall in addition to catering for people moving about Northern Ireland who move onto fresh registers. The indications from the type of figures floating around are that there is still a long way to go in order to catch up, although I grant there are ways in which you cannot really know this until some greater and fuller research has been done. It does not seem unreasonable to say that there is a big shortfall and there is a bit shortfall amongst young people in particular. Are there things which can be further done with rolling registration in time to pick it up a lot before the Assembly elections?
  (Mr Stanley) The answer to the last question is probably not. In order to get onto the register for the Assembly elections people will have to have submitted their registration form by 10 April, so there is very little time left for people to do so. May I say that one of the problems with rolling registration is that it was never designed as a second canvass and we have some considerable difficulty in that we are geared up and the legislation requires us to carry out the annual canvass in the autumn. Rolling registration was always intended purely to allow individuals who either move their address or who wished to come onto the register from outside Northern Ireland. It was never intended as a second canvass. Perhaps I could ask Mrs Butler to take some points forward on rolling registration because it is she who has been leading that particular team.
  (Ms Butler) There have been 33,340 applications under rolling registration. The net figure increase in the register is only something like 23,000. You will appreciate also that one of the functions of rolling registration, one of the reasons why it was implemented, was that people could also be taken off the register. The net figure increase is 23,000, 33,000 have been added, but of the order of 8,000 have been taken off through deaths and so forth in the period since the beginning of December. Rolling registration has been quite an extensive effort in our offices this time. Last month alone, for example, there were 10,000 applications. If that happens again this month, there will be a further increase for the 1 May register, the one to be used at the Assembly elections.

  66. It seems to the layman and from some of the representations we have received that all help would be gratefully received in getting this right from your point of view.
  (Ms Butler) Absolutely.

  67. Historically we know that the political parties in Northern Ireland have taken a very close view and been involved very closely in getting people onto the register and making sure the register is accurate. Do you have any concerns about the extent or indeed the manner of traditional involvement of these parties in the electoral registration process?
  (Mr Stanley) May I just say that we have had particular problems with parties sending in lists. Last week we had a closing date on Friday for parties who wanted to submit lists, with one or two parties sending us in hugely long lists. One party sent in to one office something like 44 pages of names which of course is a very short time for us to get them turned round, get the information and registration form out and get it back for 10 April. We have been keen to work with parties over the longer period so that we can process the applications in a much more reasonable time. That has been one problem, but the other problem we faced in particular amongst most parties is that we have lists provided to us by the parties since the register was published at the beginning of December. We have been given lists of the names of people the parties believe should be on the register and who are not on the register, because of course MPs, MLAs and councillors all get copies of the full register, so it is quite an easy task for them to check. What we are concerned about is that many of the lists appear to us to have been produced either by comparing registers of a couple of years ago with the current register and running them through a personal computer where the lists we get are simply the difference between the people who were on the register a year or two years ago and the people who are now on the register. That list contains many people who have either moved or registered elsewhere or indeed have died. So a large amount of our capacity in the area offices to deal with such matters is being absorbed by having to check the lists in as much detail as we can, to take out the names of people who are elsewhere on the register or people who have died. One of the great embarrassments we have at the moment is that we get quite a number of letters and telephone calls from the partners of deceased electors, where they had informed us that they were to be taken off the register, they were and then, because a party has given us details with names of these people who have died, we are writing out to the people asking why they have not registered. There is a problem there and we really do need to get the parties sending us in the names of genuine electors rather than lists which contain names of people who should not be there. That would be one particular problem. The other problem we have come across is that when the registration process in the autumn was carried out in conjunction with the parties, parties were given blank copies of the registration forms in order to help with the canvass; after we had completed our canvass, parties then were given blank copies of the registration form, so they could go out and give these to people and get them returned to us. One of the difficulties we have there is that they contain personal information and unfortunately we are led to believe that a number of parties have been copying these forms, either through a photocopier or putting them onto a PC so that personal information, belonging to individuals, is being held in contravention of the Data Protection Act. We are currently talking to the Information Commissioner about the difficulties we have there. I have written out to all the political parties, at the behest of the Information Commissioner, asking for confirmation that people are not retaining unlawfully the personal information belonging to individuals. So far I have only had confirmation from two parties that they are not doing so. There is great doubt out there as to whether this personal information provided by the elector specifically for electoral purposes has not been taken and is being used in some way it should not. There is a difficulty there and those are the two main difficulties we have with the parties. We are very keen to work with the parties and we see that they do have a contribution to make. If we can get over those particular hurdles we are very keen for them to give us clean lists with only people who are genuine electors and ensuring that there is no unlawful copying of private data.

  68. On reflection, if you were to sum up, would you say it would be fair to say that you encourage the involvement of the political parties or on reflection do you discourage them?
  (Mr Stanley) At the time of the canvass, we welcomed it and we thought it was a very good way to take things forward. We felt exactly the same about asking parties whether they would provide us with lists of the people they thought were not on the register. In the light of the way things have turned out, I do have some grave concerns.

  69. But no way to change that.
  (Mr Stanley) We would have to ask parties to ensure that they did not include people who should not be on these lists. We could ask for the lists to be in some way endorsed by a party official that they were indeed correct lists so that we have a point of contact. If parties continue to send us lists which contain people who should not be there, if it becomes a real problem, we could perhaps tell the party that they must get it right or in some way work with them to ensure that they do get it right. We really cannot sustain the level of inaccuracy that is coming in on the lists.

  70. You carry two burdens during the course of the runup to this election. We have dealt fairly extensively with one of them, which is the registration. The other relates to the electoral identity card. The first part of my question is probably for Mr Cassidy because it is extrapolating the figures he gave us earlier on; the second part someone else might prefer to take up; the third part is probably back to Mr Cassidy again. I shall throw it out and you can divide it amongst you. Mr Cassidy, you gave us figures that 235,000 had ticked the box on the electoral registration form indicating that they needed to have an ID card. That form was one which had legal requirements that they had to be careful about filling it in, because if they filled it in inaccurately, there were certain punishments. One must assume that when they ticked that box, they did it with some care. So 235,000 people ticked that box and you tell us today that a total of 51,945 people have sent in applications. Am I right in extracting from that figure that 35,709 cards have been issued on the foot of those applications, that 9,380 are in the process of being issued and that 6,800 have been returned because the appropriate information was not there or they were not entitled to receive an ID card? That means that 45,000 either have or will have received an identity card, out of the 235,000 who said they needed one. That is 190,000 people who said that they needed it, ticked the box appropriately, who will not have a photographic identifier, if they were correct in ticking the box in the first place.
  (Mr Cassidy) Yes, indeed; if they were correct in ticking the box. At the beginning of January and tail end of December we sent every one of the 231,000 at that time and subsequently to all the others as we became aware of them, an application form for the card and a freepost return envelope. The application form makes it very clear the circumstances in which the electoral identity card would be required and identifies the other forms of photographic identity which would in effect make it unnecessary for someone to apply. There are approximately 180,000 to 190,000 people who, if we cross-reference the people who have applied from whom we have received a complete application and those 235,000—and we are currently making that cross reference—we intend to send each and every one of them another form and another return envelope and that should go out some time around the middle of April.

  71. I welcome that and let me make it very clear that I am not blaming you or the Electoral Office for the fact that forms have not been returned. I am trying to quantify the extent of the problems we might face on 29 May. That is between one in five and one in six of the electorate who could end up not having the means to receive a ballot paper when they go to the polling station. I assume that the Minister asked you for some advice before he took his decision that he would remove the non-photographic identifiers from the prescribed list.
  (Mr Stanley) It was advice provided by the Northern Ireland Office rather than directly from me.

  72. Does that mean he did not ask you?
  (Mr Stanley) He did not personally come to me and ask it. It was the Northern Ireland Office who were providing advice for him and clearly I was giving them my views so that they could pass them on to him. Personally he did not come to ask me.

  73. Was any qualitative research carried out by the Electoral Office or, if you are aware of it, by anybody else, to determine whether the 190,000, the one in five of the electorate who may not be able to vote, which would be an absolute disaster, we will have riots in the streets if it is true, to reach a conclusion that those were not people who genuinely needed a card?
  (Mr Stanley) The research has been carried out largely by the Electoral Commission as part of the research into the registration process. The Minister would have been reassured that we were writing out to all of the people from whom we had heard nothing, having ticked the box, that those people were personally being addressed and that all of the 180,000-190,000 people who ticked the box and from whom we have had no response will now get a second opportunity to ensure that if they wish to apply for a card, they can do.

  74. I shall follow up with the Electoral Commission the issue of what research was carried out. What will the turnround time be? I know what is going to happen. I am going to start knocking on doors and asking people whether they have their ID card and finding hundreds of people who do not. Up to what stage in a campaign are any of us going to be able to say we can still get an ID card? What is the cut-off time for Mr Cassidy to be able to process it? Have we arranged for additional staff to be ready? You are going to get them as soon as the parties go out onto the doors.
  (Mr Cassidy) Of the 9,000-odd still in process, we expect to issue the cards some time about the middle of next week. That means that we are now ready, apart from those which are in rejection mode and which we are dealing with as a separate issue. These rejections are raised because people have not supplied the right information. We are then waiting for applications for cards from that point forward. The minimum time required, which we have committed to on the basis of a complete and accurate application, is seven days. What we are advising people to do is to apply for the card not later than 16 May. Truthfully, unless the numbers are huge after that date, we could probably deal with applications even up to a week before the elections, provided they are accurate and complete. If they are not accurate and complete, then we have to get into discussions with the applicant as to why the information is not consistent with that which they gave for the electoral register. Some people react quickly to that and the rejection is a short-term one. Other people do not seem to be able to understand that they have actually given information on two occasions which does not match.

  75. Does Mr Stanley agree with me that even if a significant proportion of that 190,000 is effectively disenfranchised, albeit because they have not acted sufficiently themselves, then it would call into question the electoral process itself.
  (Mr Stanley) The only way the electoral process could be called into question is through an electoral petition. If a candidate felt that in some way he had been aggrieved by not becoming a Member of the Assembly, then the only way that could be taken forward would be by way of an electoral petition. There is no way for us to step in and suspend the election or in any way call it into question. We have Mr Neal from the contractor who is there to process the cards and produce them and we believe we have a robust arrangement in place to ensure that every eventuality is covered. What we cannot do is issue a hundred thousand cards on the last day; it all has to be done in a reasonable way. Part of the process is one of public awareness and the Electoral Commission, as part of their publicity programme, and they will speak about it themselves, will be running a number of advertisements on television, etcetera and in the newspapers encouraging people to ensure that they get a card if they need one. In addition to that we have mobile collection points for the information about the card. We have a number of sites throughout the country and have since February time been running these opportunities throughout the country for people to go and get their photograph taken and put in the application form. We have two fixed sites, one in Belfast and one in Londonderry. In addition to that we are about to embark on a process of visiting shopping centres and supermarkets so that we will catch as many people as we can there. We shall also be going out with publicity leaflets to houses and to cinemas and places like that to inform people of the need to have the card. A little A5 flyer will be widely distributed through the post and through individual locations. We believe that we will ensure that every single person who might need the card is aware that they do need it and indeed that the opportunity for them to get it is provided in such a way as to be as convenient as possible. We believe that the contract we have with Mr Neal's company is sufficiently robust to cover all eventualities, save 100,000 people applying on the last day.

  76. May I ask a last question which comes directly from the question Mr Swire asked earlier on in relation to party involvement? The scenario I can see unfolding is that all the political parties will be out campaigning as soon as May comes round. They will be going to doors, they will discover people who require photographic identification and do not have it. Will you be providing the political parties, can you provide the political parties, with the application forms so that they can there and then get the person to fill in the details of the form, even take a photograph if necessary and submit it? Or are they going to have to go through a rigamarole of providing names to the Electoral Office, then sending out an application, people then having to fill it out and wasting another few days in between?
  (Mr Cassidy) We have been providing these application forms freely to anyone who wants them since they were available at the beginning of January.

  77. Will you supply multiple copies to the parties?
  (Mr Cassidy) We have already supplied 2,000 on one occasion to one party and there are 2,000 more waiting to be collected. I should say that it is perhaps relevant that where the parties have shown an interest in this card and been proactive in promoting the application centres and on some occasions we have provided the centres in direct response to party workers, the numbers of people who have applied for the cards have certainly shown increases in those areas.
  (Mr Stanley) May I say that we have been open to any suggestions from parties as to locations that the application centres should visit or the ways we take forward those who have come to us and asked whether we could go to certain locations at certain times and we have been happy to go along with that.

  78. Could you give us a breakdown by constituency in a note of the 230,000 applications you have had? I do not expect you to have that in your head.
  (Mr Cassidy) We have it analysed by ward and we can certainly confirm that by constituency.

  Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Mr Stanley and your team, thank you very much indeed, you have given us some very good detailed information. I think it is probably fair to congratulate you all on the very difficult job which you are doing your best to carry out. We shall see whether the Commission has any criticisms of you in their evidence.

  79. Are we going to have an election on 29 May?
  (Mr Stanley) We are entirely in the hands of others.

  Chairman: That is not a fair question and is ruled absolutely out of order. You can ask me that and I can ask you that, but not Mr Stanley. Thank you very much.