WEDNESDAY 20 NOVEMBER 2002

COLONEL MICHAEL J E TAYLOR CBE TD DL, COLONEL SIR DAVID A TRIPPIER RD JP DL AND COLONEL J RICHARD G PUTNAM CBE TD DL

  220. Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming in. I am sorry we delayed you. As you know, this Committee has taken a long interest in issues of our reserves and Territorial Army and the other voluntary services who play an enormous role in the defence and security of the United Kingdom. Our views have not always been congruent with those of the Ministry of Defence, and we are pleased you have come in this morning because we have a number of questions to ask and, firstly, going back into history a little—
  (Colonel Taylor) Would you mind, Chairman, if we just gave a quick introduction for everybody's benefit? It will be very brief.

  221. Please do.
  (Colonel Taylor) I am Colonel Michael Taylor, Chairman of the Council of Reserve Forces' and Cadets' Associations which we abbreviate to RFCAs, and I took over from General Sir Edward Jones, a former Black Rod, about two and a half years ago. I have a portfolio of other activities in the private, public and voluntary sectors, and one which might be of passing interest to some members is I am the north west regional commissioner for the NHS Appointments Commission, and I am supported here by Colonel Richard Putnam who is a businessman with a long history in the insurance history and who chairs our south east association, and Colonel Sir David Trippier, who was a member of your House and a minister, and is now a businessman and stockbroker, and is the Chairman of the north west association. If I can just make a couple of brief comments, I think there has been a misunderstanding somewhere about some aspect of our work. We ourselves are neither civil servants nor Crown servants, although our employees in the associations are—nor are we serving officers. We are volunteer civilians with long reserve service who operate as members of the community from which our reserves are drawn, so that is our involvement on a personal level. I think I need to make the point also that our associations are there primarily to support the ethos and the morale and the welfare of the reserve forces, and that is separate from but very much in partnership with the chain of command and our activities relate to recruit marketing, employer support, and to the management of the estate for the reserves. I need to put a couple of pointers in, if I may: in general terms our 13 associations are responding very positively to the current trends within the developments of the New Chapter and see these as being hugely helpful and beneficial for the future, particularly the 700 new posts and the 130,000 or so extra man training days for the reserves. However, we would not wish you to misunderstand that we still retain some reservations and concerns about some of the residual issues from SDR, not least with regard to the situation with the footprint of the Territorial Army in particular across the land as a whole which we believe has presented some serious challenges to the delivery of the New Chapter. There are issues there also about recruiting for the reserve forces which we would want to develop with you. That said, we are now at your disposal.

  222. Thank you. You have answered the first five questions!
  (Colonel Taylor) I doubt that!

  223. As I said initially, we are looking a little bit into history, and the first question really is how far do you believe the changes to the reserves brought about by the original SDR have been or have not been implemented? Do not stray into footprints because that is the next question, as is the current establishment where it is fully recruited. Could you just refer to whether the SDR has been implemented?
  (Colonel Taylor) I think that is a very straightforward issue which I can pick up—the straight answer to the implementation is yes. The implementation that was required of the original SDR of the reduction in the number of Territorial Army units and the refocusing of many of their roles has happened to a very considerable degree. There are some residual issues, not footprint issues, about the disposal of the reserve estate which are still being worked through and that has taken quite a long time. I have to make the point that we believe more could have been done by using us and our experience in that territory rather than, as it was, taken on by defence estates, but in general terms, yes, it has been implemented.
  (Colonel Sir David Trippier) Could I add to that, Chairman? The truth is in the north west region we were asked to cut out some eight Territorial Army centres, and there are still two that have to be disposed of, so, as you know, that is four years down the line. The point that Colonel Taylor has just made obviously is valid. We believe that if we had been given the job—and we have had that job in the past of disposing of the estate—it would have happened, and I think it would have been handled more diplomatically because, as you well know, the Secretary of State said at the time that whatever happened with the original SDR it should not adversely affect cadets, and there is clear evidence that it has in certain instances adversely affected cadets where they were actually based in some of the Territorial Army centres which were to be closed.

  224. Did they ask you your views on disposing of some of the assets? Some were incredibly valuable.
  (Colonel Taylor) Yes, like our own headquarters, Duke of York's, which is still being disposed of. We, funnily enough, move out of that next week so, yes, that is the most valuable bit of estate being sold under SDR.

  225. Do they have the expertise in-house to successfully sell off very valuable national assets?
  (Colonel Taylor) I think when it comes to Duke of York's probably yes, but when it comes to some of the TA centres around the country at large no, because they do have not the local knowledge.

  226. I always felt rather resentful that my old regiment, the Staffordshire regiment, which had a footprint in Walsall, had that footprint removed, so I speak with a particular experience that is providing insight to the next question. How coherent or otherwise is the current footprint of the reserves around the country as a result of the implementation of the SDR?
  (Colonel Taylor) I think the first point to make is that we believe there is a supreme irony at the moment on footprint that the Territorial Army is now as small as it has ever been in its history—I am talking primarily here of the TA rather than the other reserves—and yet increasingly greater demands are going to be placed upon it. In terms of the coherence there are large swathes of the country where there is no presence. We see the Territorial Army now as largely an urban force. There is a Territorial Army presence in most major towns and cities but large swathes of the countryside are now completely without, like East Anglia, and in the north west, Cumbria, Lancashire, the south west and so forth where there is simply no presence, so in terms of coherence and delivering some of the requirements we are now becoming aware of the Territorial Army, there is going to be quite a serious problem, and it is primarily the infantry battalions where that has been most impacted upon.
  (Colonel Putnam) Obviously to recruit we need as wide a footprint as we can possibly attain, and it is interesting with the reserve forces, or the total reserve forces, fixed at 41,000 our recruiting figures are some nearly 12% below the establishment figures, and because most of our Territorial Army is concentrated in towns or the larger conurbations, as Mike Taylor has just said, by concentrating them in smaller areas we are stripping out towns and a huge swathes of the countryside where we simply cannot recruit, and I think it is fair to say that the lack of uniform in large swathes of the country has not only affected recruitment to the Territorial Army but to the full time services as well, and that is quite an important point to make, I think.
  (Colonel Sir David Trippier) We have no presence, for example, and Mr Causby will understand, in north Lancashire or in the whole of Cumbria except for the cadets, so the cuts which took place which you have referred to in the past, Chairman, were not using a scalpel but very much an axe as far as the infantry is concerned, and obviously that is incredibly sad and it makes it very difficult when you are trying to build up the new SDR New Chapter to give them an increased role when only a few years ago you cut them or they were cut.

  227. If someone lives in a rural area, he or she might have to travel how long—50, 75 miles?
  (Colonel Taylor) Easily. If somebody lives in, say, Carlisle or in Lockerbie they will have to go a very long way. I mention Lockerbie advisedly because, of course, when that air crash occurred there was a Territorial Army presence in the area and they were the first on the ground. That could not happen today.

  228. Is there anything feasible that might be done to increase that footprint?
  (Colonel Taylor) Without a significant review of the current establishment, probably not. Anything else which would be done would be patching and propping by way of recruiting in other areas then bussing people to their particular centres.

  229. If the current establishment is not fully recruited, is it because recruitment is poor, or retention is poor, or both?
  (Colonel Putnam) Retention is poor—there is no question about that—and certainly over the last twelve months there has been a slow downward trend and we are losing numbers, not significantly but they are still on the downward trend. Retention is terribly important. It is not a lot to do with us because it is a chain of command issue but in the twelve months ending May this year the Reserve Forces Assocations (RFCAs) in the previous twelve months had had an enormous impact on recruiting. The marketing was extremely good; it was very high profile; and most associations increased their enlistment of new recruits by 40%, but when we turned round at the end of the year we were down by 2% on the previous year—in other words, the bucket is full of holes. It is a chain of command issue but it affects us because we then have to fund the recruitment to take place of the turnover.
  (Colonel Taylor) There is another specific point which needs to be made—I think you are aware of it but I think it needs to be made at this point because of the question you have just raised—one of the consequences of the SDR change in establishment is the vast increase in the medical establishment, the AMSTA, really a very significant increase in that establishment, and hence, when you are talking about a shortfall in numbers, that is a catching-up operation with that vastly increased establishment, and that affects the total numbers in the Territorial Army because the medical part of the Territorial Army is a very large slug of the Territorial Army.

  230. You are under-recruited but, of those figures, how many are paper strength and how many are real? How many are taking their bounty?
  (Colonel Putnam) I cannot answer that directly but we can let you know.

  231. Give me a rough feel in the East of England regiment, let's say. How many would be collecting their bounty?
  (Colonel Taylor) The general assumption is we are talking of something around 60-70% FFR, fit for role. That is the general assumption that is made for planning purposes, but can I remind you that, under SDR, there was only a requirement to be at the 55%. That is the important figure. The TA is not required to be 100 per cent ready for activity. That was one of the direct consequences of SDR—55% was the figure.

  232. That is clear. Secondly, we have had endless discussions with the Secretary of State for Defence about the efficacy of the recruiting effort for the regular army, that which is handled by the recruiting group, and that which is handled by commanding officers. It seems to be impossible in the regular force to break down those men and women that are recruited directly by black economy recruiters—in other words, the commanding officers' personal recruiters—and those which are recruited by the recruiting group. Can you shed some light on that?
  (Colonel Putnam) The whole recruiting structure has been dramatically changed over the last four or five year period, and a new paper has come out in the last six months which is the Territorial Army recruiting policy. I think we have moved forward light years over the last four or five years. Basically there are five levels in the recruiting group in the army as a whole for recruiting both full and part time reservists. The RFCAs have people on the boards at all those five levels. Colonel Mike Taylor sits on the policy group; I sit on the next level down at the strategy group; a full time executive secretary sits on the marketing committee; I sit on TARG, which is the recruiting group committee which just deals with recruiting Territorial Army; and then level 5 is the recruiting groups at each of the brigade levels, and we are there in all of those working much more closely now with all that is going on. I think our impact is beginning to bear fruit and we are having some sway on the sort of advertising material and everything else that we need to make this thing work. The recruiting is very good; the retention is what is hitting us at the moment.

  233. On a very small point, on Saturday a constituent came to my surgery, 70 years of age, who had been in the Territorial Army for 25 years, asking if he was entitled to some sort of pension because he had heard through the grapevine he could get a pension. What I need to find out is was he entitled, and would it help in the recruitment and the retention if there was some sort of pension?
  (Colonel Taylor) It is a very old topic that has been bandied around for many a year. There is no pension directly for service in the reserve forces. There are arrangements individuals can make for supplementary pensions but that is a private arrangement. It has been debated at length and it has never been resolved properly. Will it help, Richard?
  (Colonel Putnam) I do not think it will, and coming from the insurance industry and being a compliance director, the whole concept of calculating a pension contribution for something like 28 days a year would be actuarily so complicated and the net worth for somebody at the end in 5 or 10 years' time really does not make economic sense.

  234. A bit like most pension holders!
  (Colonel Putnam) Your words not mine!

  Chairman: Thank you for helping Mr Roy with his surgery.

  235. Can I pick up on the point you made about retention? What are the particular problems with retention? You have no problem with recruitment but what are the problems with retention and what are you doing to try and address them?
  (Colonel Taylor) I think the point we have always been aware of is what we have called the churn in the early days. We have far too high a wastage rate of youngsters who come in and do not last the pace of the first year. That is where the concentration, in my view, has always needed to be and that is about keeping their interest, making sure they get some value out of it and so on, but there are other issues as well.
  (Colonel Putnam) It is a long story. Clearly post SDR when we were cutting back from a Territorial Army of 55,000 down to 41,000, and the mergers of the infantry battalions was very painful, initially a lot of guys held on and the battalions for the first two or three years post SDR were over-bearing, but it was then the impact on the re-organisation of the infantry in particular into non viable outfits which really was significant because they were still serving in something which did not have the same aims as the old battalions, and the new infantry battalions were becoming individual training organisations with very small battalion headquarters and no headquarters company and that had a bad impact, and the chances of promotion for the young officer disappeared over the horizon merely because they could not get the experience they needed to qualify for promotion. That is beginning to change with the outcome of SDR New Chapter; the enhancements of posts in there is very significant but there are other things that have to change as well, and all of those things together made up a retention issue which was quite hard to contain, I think.
  (Colonel Sir David Trippier) There are two things I would like to say, if I may, Chairman: there is a great push at the moment on officer recruitment. That is an area, apart from the Army Medical Services which Mike mentioned earlier on, which has I think the greatest concentration of effort at the moment. We are talking about an entirely different scenario from perhaps the one we experienced 20-30 years ago for a lot of young officers, men and women. The demands of their civilian occupations are far greater and the mobility of those individuals to move away from their area is far greater than 20-30 years ago—that is a statement of fact not hypothesis. So that is one problem. The other problem is, and I know we are going to get into other territory here, that employer support is very important for retention—that we enlist the support of employers, whether they are small, medium or large companies, and that is an area especially in the New Chapter which we are really going to have to concentrate on because quite a number of our people are leaving because they are not necessarily getting the support of those employers.
  (Colonel Taylor) Finally, if I may, it may be of interest to know that there was an attitude survey done in the 80s which gave birth to the National Employer Liaison Campaign, which was about wastage and what was going on. We have not had one of those for a very long time and it is conceivably a good idea that we should be doing some real analysis of the wastage rates in a way that has not been properly done for some time.

  236. What are the legal rights for demanding time off? Are there any legal rights?
  (Colonel Taylor) There are certain protections within the Reserve Forces Act of 1996 which give people certain rights and privileges in this context but there are no absolute rights. You cannot simply line up with your employer and say, "I am in the reserve force; I need two weeks extra time off".

  237. Would that need to be looked at?
  (Colonel Taylor) There are a whole range of issues around that which are worth looking at, yes, and incentives to employers as well.

  238. Are you saying it is the lack of formed units which is the real factor resulting in these low retention rates?
  (Colonel Putnam) I do not think so. I think with the outcome of SDR New Chapter there is a much more positive role coming in for the infantry battalions, plus the enhancement they have had to their establishments. SDR New Chapter, with CCRFs, with another 130,000 man training days coming into the TA, is a significant enhancement and must help us enormously, but I think the officer plot is quite important because we are short of young officers coming in; there is also a huge swathe of officers in the middle who are over age for the appointments they hold, and we have been asking for a dedicated officer campaign for the last four or five years. One has just been launched this year directed at higher education, further education and OTCs, and the spring campaign for 2003 is dedicated to the officer corps, and that must help us. In the meantime, Scotland RFCAs where they are drastically short have just carried out a potential officer campaign using local media, adverts and so on, and have had over 300 inquiries. They have to be whittled down to those which will be suitable, will understand the training track and go through the procedures.

  239. If you are saying that you have 60-70% fully fit for role, that means that the number of Territorial Army people available is not 40,000 at all but something like 26-27,000?
  (Colonel Putnam) That is right, but it has always been thus because, whatever the size of the Territorial Army, there is roughly in any one year 30% turning over and within that most will be recruits in their first year.