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24 Mar 2003 : Column 57—continued
Mr. Steen: As the Secretary of State is making good progress, can I ask her a question about farmers' markets? In my constituency, I have vineyards and cider makers. In Europe, people can sell wine and cider without any licences—they just go to market and sell. Can the Secretary of State assure me that that will be allowed under the Bill?
Tessa Jowell: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman, who should be praised for taking the main chance, that assurance. One of the Bill's fundamental provisions requires people selling alcohol to have a licence. However, we want to support the continuing flourishing development of farmers' markets, and the Bill aims to ensure that the responsibility for applying for a licence will not be unduly onerous on the hon. Gentleman's cider or wine makers
To address the disorder that results from fixed closing times, we have looked at the experience of other countries, and have concluded that they have taken the right direction, as there is far less disturbance at their respective closing times. The abolition of fixed closing times and its effect on binge drinking ties the Bill very
closely to the national alcohol harm reduction strategy. The Bill also introduces a new degree of personal accountability, as the holder of a premises licence will be personally responsible for complying with its conditions. The new personal licence to supply alcohol will mean that bad landlords will carry their records with them and good landlords will be able to move more easily, delivering greater management flexibility.
Paddy Tipping (Sherwood): The Secretary of State has made it clear that personal licences are essential for good management of the industry. Does she believe that those personal licences should be registered and held centrally?
Tessa Jowell: My hon. Friend has made an important point, which was also made in an amendment tabled in another place. We need to make a clear distinction between a national licensing authority and a national licensing database. It is certainly our intention to establish a national licensing database for precisely the reasons suggested by my hon. Friend.
We agree that local authorities should take into account the effect that a concentration of licensed premises in a particular area may have on levels of crime, disorder and public nuisance. They need to be able to do so to minimise disruption to local communities. In that respect, I thank and pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), who is not in the Chamber at the moment because he has another commitment, for his tenacious pursuit of this issue.
In the light of our examination of that issue, we have added local authority planning committees to the named bodies that will scrutinise applications. We have also made it clear in guidance that licensing authorities will be able to take into account cumulative effect, as it is known, in setting the framework of their local policy. They will be able to make it clear in their statements of licensing policy that, for certain areas, there is a presumption against granting any more licences for premises of a particular type. That will help us to achieve the first three of our social objectives.
Andy King (Rugby and Kenilworth): I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way. Until now, it has been very difficult for towns such as mine to have a say in what happens in and around our town centres. We have ended up being saturated by big warehouses moving in and threatening all the traditional outlets. How robust will the power be in enabling local authorities to stand up and say, "Enough is enough"?
Tessa Jowell: As I am sure my hon. Friend will recognise in terms of his constituency experience, what people want in town and city centres is a mix of facilities rather than a single kind of licensed premises. I hope that the more flexible approach that I have outlined—which will have statutory force as it will be set out in the guidance which local authorities will reinforce through their statement of licensing policy—will give effect to that greater flexibility and allow our towns and cities to attract a greater diversity of licensed premises.
The protection of children is the fourth of the key principles against which licensing decisions will be judged. Many people mistakenly believe that we are
actively introducing new provisions to make it possible for any child to enter any licensed premises unsupervised. What few people realise—I think that this is due to the impenetrable inconsistency of existing licensing provisions on children—is that children already have unsupervised access to pubs and clubs at the licensee's discretion. It is now legal for any child over 14 to enter any part of licensed premises without adult supervision as long as they do not go into the bar area.
Claire Ward (Watford): Will my right hon. Friend clarify that she is proposing that children of any age, including those under 14, will now have unsupervised access to licensed premises?
Tessa Jowell: I shall answer my hon. Friend's question by developing the point that I had just begun to make. I think that that will give her the answer that she is seeking.
A child as young as five can already enter a pub or club unsupervised as long as they stay away from the bar area. It would be perfectly legal under the current system for a seven-year-old to go into a night club unsupervised at 2 am. The reason why they do not is a very important principle that will also be an important factor under the new regime—they can do so only at the discretion of the licensee. We are not changing that. Children will continue to be admitted only at the licensee's discretion, as is currently the case.
The Bill contains many tough protections for children. In order to ensure that we get them right, we are working closely with the police, child protection groups and children's charities to ensure that they are tough and rigorous enough. We are working with the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, the Children's Society, Turning Point, the Methodist Church, the Salvation Army, the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Association of Directors of Social Services. All those organisations have provided advice to us about the right approach to protecting children. With their help, we have developed a package of measures including clear guidance about supervision levels. We propose that, in addition to the existing statutory consultees in relation to licensing decisions, the local area child protection committee should be added to the list of responsible authorities that must be consulted on every application. If a place is unsuitable for children, the committee will be able to object. Representations will lead to a hearing that will allow conditions to be placed on a licence that will regulate access by children or exclude them from premises altogether, if necessary. Local people—obviously including parents and teachers— will also be able to make representations.
I have agreed with those whom I have consulted four clear supervision levels that will be set out in my statutory guidance to local authorities. The first level covers premises to which children should not be allowed access at all because they might be exposed to drugs, gambling or adult entertainment. The second covers premises in respect of which the presumption is that those aged under 18 will not normally be allowed access except in specific circumstances, such as when a night
club hosts an under-18s disco. The third covers premises that children aged under 14 should access only when supervised by an adult—some pubs might fall into that category. The last—I hope that this addresses the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Claire Ward)—covers premises to which unsupervised children aged under 14 will be permitted access, such as most cinemas, theatres, restaurants and cafés. Amendments made in another place would have meant that children aged under 14 would need to be accompanied in any licensed premises, and the charities made it clear that that would be too restrictive given the protections that the Bill already provides.Our combination of a flexible Bill and clear guidance will ensure that children will always be afforded the necessary protection for their circumstances. We do not want to require children to be accompanied to cinemas or theatres, but it would be highly undesirable to give them unfettered access to all licensed premises.
Claire Ward: For most people, the issue is not unaccompanied children's access to cinemas or theatres. Most people to whom I have talked about the issue are concerned about unaccompanied children's access to licensed establishments that are mainly for adults and have the main purpose of serving alcohol. Why did my right hon. Friend not take the opportunity to use the Bill to introduce a consistent approach on the access of children to such premises, rather than allowing a decision simply to be up to a licensee's discretion?
Tessa Jowell: Because we are trying to achieve flexibility and to reflect the wide range of premises that will be subject to licensing. The four levels that we have defined for children's access show that we have addressed my hon. Friend's point and will ensure that there will be a presumption that children will not be admitted to premises that are unsuitable for them whether or not they have adult supervision. That will be set out in my statutory guidance and it will be incumbent on local authorities to apply the framework of the guidance when it takes licensing decisions.
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