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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Adam Ingram): I am informed that there are currently 14 outstanding extradition proceedings between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. In five of these cases no arrest has yet been made. In the remaining nine cases, the legal process is taking its course. It should be noted that not all of the cases are terrorist related.
Mr. Ross: Surely the Minister will agree that, even after 30 years of trying, the system is by no means satisfactory, especially in respect of those who are wanted for terrorist crimes. Individuals such as Liam Averill, about whom the Minister and I have corresponded, has not yet been arrested in the Republic of Ireland, despite the issue of six warrants for his arrest. In what position will such people be at the end of the month? When all the terrorist prisoners are out of prison in Northern Ireland, will a man such as Averill still be liable for arrest under the warrants that have been issued? If he is arrested, will he ever be returned to Northern Ireland? If he does return, will he have to finish sentences for murder, or would the murders of John McCloy and Alan Smith, who were shot to death by that man and his companions in Garvagh in 1994, simply be forgotten? Are those not questions to which people in Northern Ireland should have clear, concise answers?
Mr. Ingram: The answer in one sense is yes. The clear, concise answer is that I will not debate individual cases in Committee because a court of law must be applied to the situation. The matter does not rest just with Ministers—the courts must also deal with the issues and extradition must be processed through that approach. We have said consistently that we would uphold the rule of law and that is what we seek to do in that area, as in other areas.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann): My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) was drawing attention to the difficulties with regard to extradition because of the limited grounds on which extradition is available, especially with regard to so-called political offences. Has the Minister raised with the Irish Government the desirability, since the Belfast agreement, of moving away from that limited legislation, which related to difficulties that the agreement has resolved, and moving towards more broadly based extradition arrangements such as would be appropriate between friendly states?
Mr. Ingram: I am not conscious of detailed discussions of that nature. I will seek to find an answer to the question and will write to the right hon. Gentleman in response to the specific question.
Mr. Robert McCartney (North Down): In the Minister's reply to the hon. Member for East Londonderry relating to the Averill case, he said that he was not willing to discuss individual cases, presumably in an allusion to the sub judice rule. However, Averill is a convicted murderer who has already gone through the legal process: he has been convicted of two murders, has been in prison and has escaped into the Republic. In no circumstances is there an objection—legal or otherwise—to dealing with the specific queries raised by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Ingram: I have said that I do not think it appropriate to discuss individual cases and I am surprised that the hon. and learned Gentleman should say that what he calls the sub judice rule has no relevance to such matters. It clearly has relevance. I have written to the hon. Member for East Londonderry setting out the Government's position and saying that we are seeking to ensure that one of the individuals to whom he referred is brought back to our jurisdiction. As far as we know, that person is not in our jurisdiction. We therefore need proper identification and for the proper processes to be gone through to ensure that he is returned. Those matters are for courts of law and not for politicians scoring points off each other.
Punishment Beatings
7. Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes): If he will make a statement on current trends in the level of punishment beatings. [128191]
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Adam Ingram): From 1 January to 25 June, there were 125 paramilitary-style attacks, 61 shootings, of which 38 were by loyalists and 23 by republicans, and 64 assaults, of which 37 were by loyalists and 27 by republicans. That compares with 120 attacks in the same period last year, of which 81 were by loyalists and 49 by republicans.
Shona McIsaac: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. I was trying to do some mathematics quickly but did not manage to calculate a total. What is clear is that all members of the Committee should condemn all punishment beatings in Northern Ireland. They are simply unacceptable, regardless of which side perpetrates them. I feel, and I hope that my right hon. Friend feels, that proper policing is the solution to problems in Northern Ireland society. Those figures demonstrate the importance of the Police (Northern Ireland) Bill to getting a police organisation to deal with those dreadful attacks.
Mr. Ingram: My hon. Friend is right. The matter is not simply about arithmetic, although I had to respond precisely to the question regarding current trends. One punishment attack is one too many. All those manifestations are a denial of human rights and work against the civil liberties of individuals, whether they are assaulted or driven from their community into exile. I have consistently said that every member of Northern Ireland society who wants a proper society must condemn all the attacks and all such manifestations unreservedly. I share the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend in asking the question.
Mr. Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Valley): Is not the reality that the scourge of paramilitarism is spreading, particularly in urban areas in Northern Ireland, as an inter-territorial battle is going on between the various paramilitary groups? Do not the Government need a clear strategy to deal with that? It is all very well condemning the attacks, as we all do, but they are a symptom of a deeper problem—the fact that paramilitarism is increasing, spreading and becoming more overt.
The Chairman: Order. Questions must be brief.
Mr. Donaldson: We have seen some appalling displays of paramilitarism recently. Will the Minister assure us that the Government have a strategy to deal with it?
Mr. Ingram: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's underlying view that Northern Ireland is in a worse situation than hitherto. That is not the case. However, I agree that there are far too many examples of what he described, and that there is a tendency for internecine struggle to develop between various groups, primarily on the loyalist side. No one can condone that.
The hon. Gentleman says that the Government need a strategy. They have one; it is called the rule of law. If people have evidence of the problem that the hon. Gentleman describes, and want a lawful society, they should come forward with the evidence. They should co-operate with the RUC, which is doing all that it can in difficult circumstances to deal with the problem. Far too many crimes of this nature go unsolved, not because of lack of Government effort in legislating, nor because of the way that the police conduct their business, but because of a lack of co-operation in communities with the agencies of the law. Such co-operation is one of the most effective ways of dealing with criminality and paramilitarism on the streets and in the towns of Northern Ireland.
Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire): Is there not something of an inconsistency between the claims of paramilitary groups that they have put arms beyond use and the continuation of intimidation, beating and exile? Would not a move to end intimidation by paramilitary groups do more than anything else to convince people that putting arms beyond use is a genuine tactic? Are there any signs that paramilitary groups are likely to end such activity?
Mr. Ingram: I agree with the assumptions and assertions on which the question is based, but obviously I cannot share any intelligence information about how matters are likely to progress. I make a plea for the removal of all forms of violence from Northern Ireland society. Otherwise, we shall not arrive at the normalisation of society that we all want. Those with the weapons, those who support them and those who provide tacit support, too, should hear the plea of the ordinary people of Northern Ireland and those who wish Northern Ireland well. We want a different and better society. It is time for people of good will to tackle that aim, alongside the agencies of law and order.
Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry): From the way in which the Minister is speaking it appears that the Government are treating the beatings and mutilations almost as isolated incidents, rather than as a concerted campaign of intimidation in which paramilitary groups from both sides of the loyalist-nationalist divide attempt to take over areas and towns in Northern Ireland. Will the Minister address that matter, which is of deep concern?
Mr. Ingram: I have addressed it, as a totality and in detail. I do not accept the basis of the question. If the hon. Gentleman has a view on how the law should be changed to ensure maximum effect, he could help by putting it forward. Does he want more draconian measures, or measures that might conflict with international standards on the protection of human rights and civil liberties? Governments in the past have tried those methods—rounding people up and interning them. They discovered that that did not solve problems but created them. It is easy to be a commentator on the problem. The Government must look for solutions and work alongside the RUC, giving it and the agents of law and order every support in pursuing the objectives that we all share.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann): Does the Minister know that the answer to his recent question is available to him from the record and from my party's arguments over the past seven years? On the advice of the RUC, the two key things that are needed are admissibility of intercepted communications and measures along the lines of the racketeer-influenced corrupt organisations legislation. Those have been the vital elements in the defeat of racketeering in the United States. They are operating successfully in the Republic of Ireland. The Government, like their predecessor, are dragging their feet over those measures.
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