| Draft Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 2000
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Mr. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire): The Minister may not be able to answer this question now, but will he explain, either now or by letter, why there is a reduced requirement of £11 million for student loans? Mr. Ingram: That could perhaps be dealt with in detail during winding-up speech, but it basically relates to the two-year allocation of moneys that were calculated for that purpose and the fact that one term in the estimates, which was expected to be paid, was not required. The figure was five instead of six, and a reduction flows from that. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary could take the Committee through the student loan element of the estimates in detail. In vote 14 on pages 54 to 58, a net increase of £58.6 million is sought for expenditure on hospital, community health and personal social services, health and social services trusts, family health services and certain other services. That includes £23.9 million carried forward from 1998–99 under end year flexibility arrangements, £20.3 million towards winter and other pressures, £9.4 million for capital expenditure and £5 million for the meningitis vaccine programme. Votes 16 and 17 also cover health and social services expenditure. In vote 16 on pages 61 to 63, additional net provision of £9.1 million is sought for expenditure on certain miscellaneous health and personal social services costs. That includes £8.5 million for the European Union peace and reconciliation programme and £0.4 million for grants to community groups funded by the European regional development fund. Additional net provision of £10.5 million is sought in vote 17 on pages 64 to 68 to meet administration and other miscellaneous costs. That includes £12.3 million to fund running cost, capital and other administration pressures. The increases are offset by an overall increase in receipts of £1.8 million, mainly from the department of social security, for administering certain services on its behalf. Vote 19 on pages 69 to 71 covers social security, which is centrally administered. In it, £12.9 million is sought mainly to meet higher than anticipated expenditure on housing benefit and increased payments into the Northern Ireland national insurance fund in respect of statutory sick and statutory maternity payments. Those increased requirements are offset by reduced ones elsewhere in the vote. Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South): How have the Government calculated what might be required to deal with men over 60 who are entitled to winter fuel allowances arising from the decision in Europe? What steps are being taken to verify the numbers involved? Mr. Ingram: I am sure that the Committee will give me some latitude in not responding to that in detail. That question about a precise allocation of one element of the estimates would perhaps be better dealt with by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary when he sums up. Finally, there is also additional provision of £4.4 million for the Northern Ireland Assembly on pages 79 and 80. That increase is to allow the Assembly to begin to implement the recommendations of the Assembly Commission. It examined the resources that the Assembly will require in order to discharge its functions fully. I must advise the Committee, however, that during suspension the Northern Ireland Act 2000 requires that the cost of the Assembly is met directly from a Northern Ireland Office vote. That is put before the House as part of the approval process for UK supply estimates, and, is a completely separate procedure from today's business. Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby): Perhaps I have not been following matters as closely as I could, given that the Assembly has been suspended. Are its Members still being paid? Mr. Ingram: Yes, at the reduced rate that they were paid before they took on their responsibilities as fully functioning Members of the Assembly. Mr. Robathan: With the suspension, does the Minister agree that Members of the Assembly are doing no work? One can understand why the Assembly might require a shadow establishment of civil servants, who I am sure are working, but what reason can there be for the British taxpayer voting more than £3 million extra to the Assembly when its Members are not working? Mr. Ingram: First, United Kingdom taxpayers are contributing, not British taxpayers. Mr. Donaldson: What is the difference? Mr. Ingram: I hear noises off about the difference between the UK and Britain, but this is not the right forum in which to debate that. The Chairman: Order. I ask the Minister to return to the estimates, as we are dealing purely with the appropriation order, not the semantics of what is Britain and what is the UK. Mr. Ingram: I should have liked to have done so. I am glad that we are not debating this elsewhere, but I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman looked so quizzical about what I said, as there were sound reasons behind it. Members of the Legislative Assembly—the MLAs—are still carrying out constituency work: they still write to Ministers, deal with their constituents' problems and represent constituency interests. I do not understand the purpose behind the suggestion that we should not pay them. That would effectively wind up the Assembly and there would then be no representative body in any shape or form. Mr. Robathan indicated dissent.
Mr. Ingram: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but I do not know whether I can respond to that approach. Judgments have been made and lessons learnt. First, there was an overwhelming vote by the people of Northern Ireland in favour of the Belfast agreement. People were elected to represent different areas and work in partnership with local councils, Members of Parliament and MEPs. That extended the basis of democratic representation within Northern Ireland. While we are in the process of trying to restore that Assembly, it is appropriate that these people continue in office. I must also remind the hon. Gentleman that that is what was approved by Parliament. Mr. Thompson: I am interested to hear that Members' salaries have been reduced already. I was not aware of that. Was a regulation passed to that effect? Mr. Ingram: The Act passed by this Parliament gave power to the Secretary of State to act in that way and he carried out his powers. Mr. John D. Taylor (Strangford): Does the Minister recognise the increasing public concern in Northern Ireland about the payment of salaries at the full level? A11 powers have been transferred from Stormont to the Westminster Parliament and no committees are taking place. That has caused anxiety. Will the Minister confirm whether salaries will continue indefinitely? The Chairman: Order. Before the Minister gets to his feet, there is a high level of extraneous conversation in Committee and I should like to hear the Minister. Mr. Ingram: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the best answer is the reinstatement and full functioning of the Assembly. Mr. Taylor: Not in present circumstances. Mr. Ingram: Well, that is a matter to be debated elsewhere. I accept the right hon. Gentleman's point about how this is viewed in Northern Ireland, but the decision to maintain MLAs was approved by an Act of Parliament. The Secretary of State exercised his powers in setting salaries. All considerations must now be taken into account as we move forward through the process. The Government's objective—and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman would support it—is to have the Assembly restored and to get it functioning fully again. That is our understanding of the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. All the parties are currently engaged in trying to find a way forward out of the current difficulties. Mr. Taylor: I would wish to see the reinstatement of the Executive and the Assembly only on the basis of full implementation of the Belfast agreement—and I see no likelihood of that in the foreseeable future. In those circumstances, will the Minister confirm that it is impossible to reduce the salaries of MLAs until the Assembly is abolished? Mr. Ingram: It would be inappropriate for me to respond in detail about the legality of that, although it may dealt with in the summing up. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the restoration of the Assembly in line with the full implementation of the Belfast agreement. We share that point of view: that is precisely what the Government have always sought and will continue to try to achieve. We are doing so in our present discussions. Mr. Robert McCartney (North Down): Am I correct in saying that the salary of Members of the legislative Assembly of Northern Ireland who were not elected representatives to any other body was originally about £29,000 and that, as one of its first acts, the Assembly voted for an additional £10,000, which increased that salary to about £39,000? When the Minister refers to a reduced salary, does he mean taking away the additional £10,000 that the Members voted themselves during their brief period in power? Mr. Ingram: I am not going to comment on how the Assembly exercises its power. That is a matter for the devolved Administration. We as Members of Parliament recently approved a rise for ourselves, too. The hon. and learned Gentleman is right about what took place when the Assembly was up and running, and I thought that I had dealt with that point earlier. Mr. McCartney: I am grateful to the Minister, but when the Members were receiving £29,000 a year many were serving on committees that dealt with procedure and business. Now, however, they are doing absolutely nothing in the Assembly or on committees. Mr. Ingram: I understand that point. At the moment, we are dealing with an undesirable environment. It is not what we wanted. We wanted the Assembly to continue. I would be stretching the debate if I discussed the ramifications of what happened in February and the run-up to that. I am sure that the Secretary of State is fully cognisant of that point. To return to the point made earlier by the hon. and learned Gentleman's colleague—I do not know whether the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) is a colleague, but he may wish to be in the context of this debate.
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| ©Parliamentary copyright 2000 | Prepared 9 March 2000 |
