THURSDAY 18 NOVEMBER 1999

PROFESSOR LIAM DONALDSON, DR DAWN MILNER, MR TIM BAXTER AND MR PAUL LINCOLN

  20. Do any of your colleagues wish to add to Dr Milner's answer?
  (Mr Baxter) I think it is important to realise with the immense amount of information that has come out of the American litigation that we are dealing there with primarily American companies and on BATCO, the predecessor of BAT, there are documents there but in fairness one should say we do not have information of that sort from Imperial, Gallahers, Rothmans, so one has to bear that in mind when looking at this area.

  21. Mr Lincoln, do you have any thoughts from your perspective on what the tobacco companies did or did not know and what was shared with the Government and what was not shared with the Government?
  (Mr Lincoln) I have no knowledge of that because we are outside Government in that respect. I have no knowledge of that.

  22. That was an interesting answer there from Mr Baxter. Are you suggesting that the tobacco companies have an independent strategy for each company when there is a fairly united front against them?
  (Mr Baxter) I am suggesting that when one is talking about the tobacco industry as an homogenous group one has to be careful particularly when you are going to make critical comments about their behaviour.

  23. Yet they are funding the research jointly presumably and they put representatives on committees looking at harm that smoking does jointly. Are you really suggesting that they are not aware of the work that they are doing within the industry?
  (Mr Baxter) With respect, that is a question you would have to put to them.

  24. You have got no evidence?
  (Mr Baxter) I have got no evidence.

  25. Either way?
  (Mr Baxter) Yes.

  26. I just wonder if I could ask the Chief Medical Officer a similar question to that I asked Mr Lincoln. Given that in his earlier answer to questions one got the impression that he felt that more possibly could have been done in the past, what does he feel about the Government's policy and the way it has dealt with advertising in Formula One? Does he support the Government on this?
  (Professor Donaldson) I think against a strong package of action which is tackling advertising and promotion root and branch and a wide range of other complementary measures that have never been put in place before, I am very, very pleased with progress. As far as the specific measure is concerned, that was a decision taken by Ministers. As a civil servant who had been in the Department probably a fortnight or slightly longer at the time that that was being deliberated on I had to accept Ministers' decisions but against a background of very comprehensive action which I think many of us at a time when I was outside the Department of Health would have loved the Government to have taken many years ago.

  27. As someone coming from a medical background, do you feel that this has opened up a loophole, albeit possibly for a relatively short period of time and do you feel that a complete package, as we had understood was going to be introduced at the outset, would have been preferable to allowing this loophole to emerge even if it is only for a matter of years?
  (Professor Donaldson) I think there is a commitment to close the loophole.

  28. But the loophole has been created by the very body that had such a strong aim to stop all advertising.
  (Professor Donaldson) But against a background of such comprehensive action I think that loophole is not going to make a huge difference to the overall impact of the programme and there is a commitment to close it. I do not have strong views about that particular aspect. I am committed now to doing what I can to implement this package of action and make it work.

  29. So you are satisfied with this loophole, are you?
  (Professor Donaldson) I am satisfied with the programme of action and the commitment to implement it.

  30. That was not the question. The question was if you are satisfied with that loophole.
  (Professor Donaldson) I think that is putting the question in a very negative way. I like to look at it more positively against the comprehensive range of action that is being put in place.

  31. But that is the question I asked, negative or not.
  (Professor Donaldson) One is never satisfied with any loophole in whatever field you are in, but it sometimes takes time to close loopholes.

  Mr Burns: Are you unsatisfied with this loophole, yes or no? It is a simple question.

  32. I think it would be fair to say that Simon is not just reflecting his own perspective on this because the Committee talked about this in its first report and we said then we felt its exemption was very wrong. He is reflecting other concerns rather than just his own.
  (Professor Donaldson) It would be good if all loopholes had been closed as quickly as possible, but that was not the decision that was taken. I think that is as far I am prepared to go. I have a role within the Civil Service. I also have an independent role as Chief Medical Officer. I think I have made my position clear. I am very pleased with the package of action that is in place. There are some things that still need to be done by way of implementation and closing loopholes and that is the hand of cards that we have been dealt and we will implement it as powerfully and strongly as we can.

  33. Did you offer any advice to the Government on this proposal?
  (Professor Donaldson) I had been in post a relatively short period of time and the White Paper itself was more or less drafted and so the opportunity at that point was not there for me to get engaged in that particular discussion.

  34. So at no time since you have been the Chief Medical Officer have you offered the Government any advice in your independent role on this loophole?
  (Professor Donaldson) The policy decision had already been taken and our role now is to implement government policy and to concentrate on one narrow area instead of concentrating my attention and activity on implementing what will be a very very difficult package to implement with some very tough targets, that is where my creative energies ought to be devoted.

  35. So I am right in assuming from that answer you have not given any advice at any time to the Government on that loophole?
  (Professor Donaldson) No.

  36. Would you hope that this Committee would help to close the loophole in the work that it does?
  (Professor Donaldson) The Chairman has already said that you have—

  Chairman: We have offered some assistance already.

  37. Would you hope that what we do this time will lead to helping to close that loophole?
  (Professor Donaldson) I hope it will be helpful to the overall goals of this programme.
  (Mr Baxter) This is described as a loophole. It is fair to say that previously the situation was that tobacco sponsorship was allowed, Formula One was allowed tout court and there was no limit on ending it. So I think the language of loophole is, with respect, slightly inaccurate.

  Mr Burns: With respect, I was trying to be tactful rather than putting in blunt terms what I think it was.

  38. Can I turn to nicotine addiction. Would you agree with me that smoking is primarily a drug taking behaviour and that nicotine is a very powerful addictive substance?
  (Professor Donaldson) I believe it is a powerfully addictive substance, yes.

  39. There is no warning about the addictive nature of nicotine on cigarette packets, though, is there?
  (Professor Donaldson) No, there is not.