TUESDAY 23 NOVEMBER 1999

MR BILL CALLAGHAN, MS JENNY BACON AND MR DAVID EVES

  254. Good morning. May we start the final session of our inquiry into the work of the Health & Safety Executive. Before I welcome you could I place on record the appreciation of members of the Commission who have been taken round by individual Health & Safety inspectors. All of us who went found it very useful, and we are very appreciative of the time the inspectors gave. Could I welcome you to the Committee, and ask you to identify yourselves for the record.

  (Ms Bacon) Jenny Bacon, Director General, Health & Safety Executive.
  (Mr Callaghan) Bill Callaghan, Chair of the Health & Safety Commission.
  (Mr Eves) David Eves, Jenny's Deputy.

  255. Thank you very much. Do you want to say anything to us before we start the questions?
  (Ms Bacon) No, thank you.

  256. Are you satisfied that only 6 per cent. of major accidents are investigated, and that fewer than 10 per cent. of major injuries are prosecuted?
  (Ms Bacon) As far as the investigation of accidents is concerned, ideally we would probably like to investigate a few more—partly because the number of accidents reported to us, not the percentage, is rising. In order to keep up that kind of percentage, we need to be investigating more accidents; but we have always made plain in our published plans and statements that we do not intend to investigate every accident. We investigate: where it is clear there has been a substantial breach; according to the severity of the harm done; what we know about the track record of the company and if we have cause for suspicion there; if we think something has happened where we are going to be able to learn from it, with a view to spreading best practice as a result of investigation; where there is obviously a matter of public concern; and where we think there is a very good chance we might be able to make a prosecution stick on the initial evidence available to us. We do not set out to investigate all accidents, because there is a law of diminishing returns, and because we are in the business of prevention so we want to make sure our resources are being used to inspect and prevent things happening, rather than spending all the time on investigation of accidents that have happened. So far as prosecutions are concerned, we prosecute where we have the evidence to do so, and where it is in the public interest to do so, and that is the standard guidance for any public prosecutor. It is not always easy to get the evidence; some of these cases are extremely complex. We prosecute also where we are clear there is a severe breach, and we want to make it clear that it is a severe breach; where we think that we can gain a large element of deterrence from doing so. Deterrence is important; it is part of our armoury: but by no means all cases are going to give us that deterrent effect, particularly if we do not manage to secure a conviction, or we do secure a conviction and we get an extremely low fine—that sends entirely the wrong signals. Those are the kinds of things we are having to balance the whole time on our decisions about how much to prosecute.

  257. You seem to be confirming that you are satisfied investigating only 6 per cent. of major accidents. In terms of deterrents and in terms of public interest, are you really satisfied that 6 per cent. of major accidents investigated is a satisfactory carrying out of your duties as a Health & Safety Executive?
  (Ms Bacon) I said I would like to be investigating somewhat more, but I do not think I am talking about something substantially more than about 10 per cent. Where you draw the line is actually arbitrary. You have to look at each and every case on its merits, and that is what we try to do and if it comes out at being more than 6 per cent.—good.

  258. That is nearly 50 per cent. more, is it not, from 6 per cent. to 10 per cent? It is a considerable amount.
  (Ms Bacon) We are trying to move it up certainly. Now that we have been allocated more resources we are better able to do so. We have a large number of different objectives to achieve; we have got to try and get the balance right; to meet public concerns; and to make sure we do discharge our primary legal obligation, which is to prevent accidents by making sure the duty- holders know what it is they have got to do, and we are ensuring they are complying with it. We do not have to prosecute in all cases, we do not have to investigate accidents in all cases, to get those messages across. The primary obligation is on the duty-holders to investigate accidents and learn the lessons from them.

  259. You referred to the public interest, could you give me an example of where it would not be in the public interest to prosecute in a major accident when there had been a major injury?
  (Ms Bacon) When it would take away an enormous amount of time from other preventive work and where we have no firm certainty of being able to secure a conviction.