MR DAVID BERGMAN AND DR GARY SLAPPER

TUESDAY 2 NOVEMBER 1999

  193. Good morning, gentlemen. Welcome to the third session this morning. Could I ask you to identify yourselves for the record please?
  (Mr Bergman) My name is David Bergman, I am the Director of the Centre for Corporate Accountability. Dr Gary Slapper is on our Advisory Council and is a Director of Law at the Open University.

  194. Do you want to add anything to the memorandum you sent in?
  (Mr Bergman) Just a couple of short introductory remarks which might help clarify a couple of things. First of all, we would like to say that our comments and criticisms are primarily about the structure of the Health and Safety Executive and the lack of resources and the procedures and practices of the Health and Safety Executive rather than of the Health and Safety Executive inspectors themselves. The second point is the importance of distinguishing incidents where an inspector might come to a workplace and discover breaches of health and safety law but no death or injury has taken place, and the incidents where a death or major injury has taken place and the Health and Safety Executive inspector comes to investigate. In the first incident, the criminal law might have a very limited role because the absolutely key thing is to ensure the prevention of death or injury. In a situation where death or major injury has taken place, although it is important to ensure there is no recurrence and those dangerous conditions are improved, there is also an important issue about moral justice and accountability.

  195. You have got the word "accountability" in your centre's name, Mr Bergman, can I ask whether the figures you have produced about the HSE's failures—and you have painted a fairly shocking picture about this—have been independently validated by anyone?
  (Mr Bergman) The statistics are raw material which we obtained from the Health and Safety Executive and which we had analysed, so these are statistics not that we have made up but—

  196. Has somebody validated them so you are not taking them out of context?
  (Mr Bergman) We are more than happy to provide you with the raw data so you can do the analysis yourself, but I can assure you these statistics are absolutely accurate.

  197. What is the Centre for Corporate Accountability and how are you financed?
  (Mr Bergman) The Centre for Corporate Accountability is a new organisation which has been in existence for four or five months and we bring together all the main players who have been involved in issues of accountability in relation to corporate activities—lawyers, academics and activists—and this is what the organisation is about. We are concerned with undertaking research, advocacy and in due course of time advice on these issues. We are funded by trusts—

  198. By whom?
  (Mr Bergman) The funds we do have are from trusts.

  199. But you are a full-time employee, are you?
  (Mr Bergman) Yes, I am. We are at the moment in the process of seeking more substantial funds and the funds we do have are from a trust called the Ante Trust. We are a completely independent organisation.