TUESDAY 26 OCTOBER 1999

MR JOHN HOWARD, MR ROGER BIBBINGS AND MR MIKE TOTTERDELL

  100. What resources would you think would be necessary in these circumstances? The acceleration of resources would be monumental, in every respect, if it were to embrace all of what you are now saying?
  (Mr Bibbings) Some additional resources might be required, but not substantial resources, in our view.

  101. Because you are assuming you would go across Whitehall, you would whip out a bit of the Home Office, a bit of the various existing authorities, and put them into one unified body?
  (Mr Bibbings) And, indeed, it may simply be that HSE needs to take a better lead in co-ordinating the work of existing agencies and existing resources.

  102. Which Department would it then end up in; in which Department would HSE's responsibilities then be? If you take bits and pieces off everybody, where is it going to lie, at the end of the day?
  (Mr Bibbings) Perhaps I can say, Chairman, we can certainly give you a note about this. We are currently developing a memorandum for Lord Whitty on this subject and perhaps we could copy that to you. We feel that inland water drownings are an area where there is lack of co-ordination, for prevention, between about nine different Government organisations, and eight Departments and agencies. And we feel very strongly, because most of these drownings seem to occur in waters which are part of undertakings, not only in rivers and reservoirs, and so on, but even in swimming-pools, and so on, that HSE should be invited to look across the piece and see what the various Government agencies can do to encourage the duty holders, who are businesses and undertakings, to improve their arrangements for prevention.

  103. But do you think that they are reactive, or do you think that they are so focused that they can think ahead of the problems and would have no difficulty taking up another area, like water safety, because they have already got that degree of planning organised?
  (Mr Bibbings) I think, sadly, that HSE's approach, particularly to the safety of the public—remember that the unique feature of our health and safety law is that it protects not only workers and self-employed, it affects members of the public who are affected by undertakings, in contrast to much legislation in other Member States—because the public dimension of protection is so immense, HSE have dealt with it in a rather piecemeal fashion, and there is a lot of guidance, good guidance, produced by HSE, for example, on safety at fairgrounds, where there have been fatalities, safety at motorsports events, for example, safety at pop concerts. So every time there has been a problem in this area, HSE—

  104. They react to an existing difficulty; but are you saying to me that they are capable of co-ordinating even the work they have already done across the public sector and presenting that in a way that could ensure that the undertakings concerned respond?
  (Mr Howard) I think the answer is yes. They have the core skills and core understanding, the concept of risk runs through all the things that we are talking about here, which is well vested in the HSE. Obviously, there would have to be reorganisation to cope with it, but we believe it is possible.

  Chairman: On that note, I think you have given us a lot to think about; thank you very much.