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Mr. Gill: Can the Minister tell the House whether the report in this morning's news bulletin that Germany has
decided not to lift the export ban on British beef unless there is country of origin marking is true? If so, what is the Government's reaction?
Mr. Brown: I did not hear that report but I am happy to explain our position on labelling, which has been consistent throughout. Product labelling is a condition of the date-based export scheme. Companies, such as St. Merryn Meats in Cornwall and the Scottish abattoir that has joined the scheme, want to export clearly labelled products. The Scots prefer "Scotch beef" as the designated term on their product. That will be accompanied by the abattoir number, which is traceable throughout the industry. A range of options is open to St. Merryn Meats, including the Meat and Livestock Commission's assured British meats label. Other clear designations are open to the company.
Labelling has two purposes. One is to facilitate consumer choice, and the other is to facilitate traceability within the meat sector. In the discussions, I have always been a staunch advocate of both. Labelling is already a condition of the date-based export scheme, as far as it is within the United Kingdom's competence to enforce it. I am sorry that this is a little arcane, and I know that the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) knows about it, but not every hon. Member does.
Within the European Union, discussions are going on around what are called the beef labelling regulations. The views of the United Kingdom Government and of the German Government are, for all practical purposes, the same. We are supporters of those regulations, and we believe that the product should be labelled and that the consumer should be free to choose.
We intend to sell our product on the basis of its excellence and the powerful public safeguards that make it one of the safest in the world. There is no intention to sell our products by deceit or deception, as is often alleged by our opponents or those who want to make trouble. It is not true, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Ludlow for giving me the opportunity to correct that misunderstanding.
The hon. Member for South Suffolk asks me to lift the beef on the bone ban. My view is exactly the same as it has been since I received the report of the chief medical officer, stating that I could lift the ban on retail sales and on direct sales through catering outlets. I want to lift the ban. The only constraint on my doing so is whether it will be possible to lift it in an orderly way throughout the United Kingdom, which requires the consent of others.
That is not a recipe for indefinite delay. I said that I hoped to lift the ban before Christmas. That is still my objective. If it is not possible to do so with the consent of others, we will have to consider whether it should be done on a different timetable in different parts of the United Kingdom, but that is not the most desirable way forward, as it is bound to lead to confusion and difficulties in the industry. It would be better to do it together if we can, and it is right to allow a modest delay on our part to try to achieve that outcome.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough):
I am grateful to the Minister. Who are those others whose consent he requires?
Mr. Brown:
Competence is devolved. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is consulted in these
Liam Donaldson is appointed as the chief medical officer for the United Kingdom, not for England. The advice that he is giving to the United Kingdom Government is not the same as the advice that the advisers to the other authorities are giving them. To reconcile these matters, we are allowing a little time. I hope that we can lift the ban soon. I certainly think that it is right to lift the ban.
Mr. Brown:
No, I shall make progress. A range of points was put in the debate. I am sure that the interventions are all intended to be helpful, including that of the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson), but I hope that hon. Members will forgive me. Time is short, so I shall make progress and deal with some of the other matters that were raised.
I return to the alternative policy proposed by the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for South Suffolk. I am criticised for discussing these matters with the French, although I do not put to one side any of our rights in law. Indeed, the Commission is taking infraction proceedings against France, after we allowed, as we said we would, days but no more than that to try to get the issues resolved by discussion.
Incidentally, I have not given up hope of getting the issues resolved by dialogue. It is only fair to tell the House that we are very close. For the sake of completeness, I should also tell the House that I have made no concession whatever around the operating arrangements of the date-based export scheme. I could not do that. It would not be right for me even to attempt it, and I would not even attempt it.
Although it applies specifically in our country, the date- based export scheme is the property of the European Union, which decided on the scheme on a recommendation from the Commission at the Council of Ministers last November. It is not up for renegotiation.
Nevertheless, the French have sought other assurances on five points that are in the public domain. None of them are fundamental to the date-based export scheme, except for one area of disagreement, on which we cannot give the French what they seek. We are, however, able to give the French guarantees, and it is right to do so for this reason: we want the French to be our customers. If customers ask for guarantees and we are able to give them those guarantees at no extra cost or compromise to ourselves, surely it is right to do so. We will then be able to achieve what must be our core objective, which is to sell them beef. I want the French people to be customers of British beef. That is the purpose of talking to them, discussing with them and not shouting at them and being high handed, which is the alternative approach that is often urged upon me.
More than that, I am invited to ban French products coming into this country on no scientific or medical basis whatsoever and then defend my subsequent illegal action
in probably the same court that the French would be in defending their illegal action against us if it gets that far. It is not sensible to start a trade war over these issues; it is not even proportionate.
At the beginning of our discussion, some people urged--I notice that they have shut up about it since--that we should use article 36 not as it was intended, but twist it and use it as an excuse. That point is made over and over again and it enters the folklore. So that the whole House can consider the advice that comes to me, I have put it--the best legal advice that is available to me as a Minister--in the Library. Everyone can then consider it. Have the advocates of using article 36 come forward with an alternative opinion? Have they said that the advice that I have received is not well founded in law? No, they have not. They have just moved on and come up with other arguments. Perhaps, if I resigned, the ban would be lifted. Why on earth should the person who is working hard for his country trying to sort the problem out be attacked and criticised?
The problem is not of the United Kingdom's making. Indeed, it is not even of the French Minister's making. I do not believe that the French saw it coming any more than we did. Having got the problem, surely the sensible thing to do is to try to work it out with people who are our friends, neighbours and significant trading partners. We should do that rather than escalate the quarrel and let the fallout land where it will.
There are those who say, "Ah, the French have more to lose than Britain, because they export more food products to us than we export to them." That is a very simplistic way of looking at things. If both sides were willing to accept hundreds of thousands of job losses and the millions of pounds worth of commercial losses that would hit both countries if we followed a trade-war policy and tried to enforce it when much of the trade is through third countries in the complexities of what is a single market, that would be ruinous to both countries. There is no point to that, but that ruinous policy is the official policy of the Conservative party.
Mr. Yeo:
The Minister seems to be trying to curry favour with the Prime Minister by following the same example of deliberately distorting the Opposition's position. There are two separate issues. We are dismayed at the fact that the Minister allows the French to continue reopening issues on British beef exports that have been settled to the satisfaction of everyone else.
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