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10.30 pm
Miss McIntosh: I want to make a brief point, which arises from the comments of the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) and those of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field). The new clause deals with choice, which several hon. Members' speeches have covered this evening.
Consultations that I have held on the Bill with constituents in the Vale of York who receive the sort of benefit that we are discussing through CSA provisions show that they want to retain the choice that is currently available. That does not detract from the Minister's earlier comments about Labour Members' constituents, who may choose to change to automated credit transfer payments in a good-will gesture to the Government to whom they owe their allegiance.
A third of constituents in the Vale of York choose not to have a bank account. They have never had a bank account and they do not wish to have one. [Interruption.] From a sedentary position, the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Dowd) makes a point about the 40 per cent. of my constituents who fall into a different category and choose to have a bank account. However, that choice has been taken from them. The speed with which bank branches have closed in the past two and a half years is disgraceful. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will take that up with the usual channels from a non-sedentary position. He is in a privileged position if he wishes to do that.
It is no laughing matter, and it causes anxiety to those who live in villages in the Vale of York, especially people who live in towns such as Bedale and Easingwold, where there is not just one bank but a choice of banks. That choice may disappear.
Mr. Nicholls:
My hon. Friend's constituents, like mine, have probably received a form on retirement pensions called BR1, which was revised in June 1999 and gave
Miss McIntosh:
That is a helpful comment, which is worth placing on record. I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for making it.
I want to respond to the comments of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead by saying that most Opposition Members have been in regular contact with our sub-post offices in the past two and a half years. We have nothing to fear from a mass lobby, which we would welcome.
Mr. Field:
I shall learn the lesson about walking around in hobnailed boots from the Opposition Front Bench spokesman who usually walks around the Chamber so gently. I suggested that it was the views not of Opposition Members but of Labour Members that were important tonight.
Miss McIntosh:
I could not agree more. The right hon. Gentleman's comments this evening have been courageous. I simply want to underline the fact that the Minister should take account of the fact that consultations have taken place and that if the Government had been more mindful of people's anxieties, they would not face a mass lobby.
I share the anxiety of the hon. Member for Northavon about the future of the post office network, but I want simply to place on record that the majority of my constituents do not wish to move to automated credit transfer as the only way in which they can receive benefit. They would like to retain the current arrangements, whether they are with a bank in a market town or with remaining sub-post offices.
Mr. Rooker:
I apologise for the delay in rising; I thought that the hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) wanted to contribute and I did not want to deprive anyone of the opportunity to speak.
I shall do my best to answer the debate. There will be some shortcomings in my response, and I shall not be able to answer all the points because not all the decisions have been made. I have to be as open as possible.
Mr. Rooker:
No, that is not possible. It does not work like that.
I want to get a couple of points on the record. I gave the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) the figure of 20 people a week changing to automated credit transfer. That was referred to, in her graceful way, by the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh), when she said that the change might be a good-will gesture to Labour Members. How did I get that figure? The reality is that every week, in every one of our constituencies, 20 people change to ACT. [Interruption.] There are not 600,000 members of the Labour party.
Mr. Leigh:
People choose to make that change. So what?
Mr. Rooker:
That is my point. People make that choice voluntarily, either as new beneficiaries of child support
I followed the argument of the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls). I say to him honestly and sincerely that, when I asked my question, I thought that he was about to assert that he had discovered a change in the language or the terminology. I thought that I would have to answer an allegation, but he did not make one. I know that the language has not changed since May 1997.
We had difficulty last year over child benefit, which has always been paid every four weeks. Exceptions allow it to be paid weekly, but it was thought that too many people were receiving it on those terms instead of returning to a four-weekly payment after their need changed. I genuinely was not making a cheap point against the hon. Gentleman, his Government or his former ministerial role. However, he laboured the point about the language in the leaflets and the forms, and I thought that he was about to make an assertion.
Mr. Nicholls:
My point is that the policy has changed and the language has not. The Minister has been writing letters implying that people will be able to get their benefits in cash from post offices after 2003. There is nothing wrong with writing letters, but people will be able to get their benefits in cash only if they have a bank account. It is unrealistic to expect that, on the evidence, unless the Government or the banks take action to make them open accounts. That is the simple point.
Mr. Rooker:
I promise to address that important matter.
I have prepared statements to make because I want to get some remarks on the record. The hon. Member for Teignbridge laboured the point on the shortcomings of national savings accounts, although I accept everything that he said. Some of the manual books are ridiculous--they are from the ration book era--and the technology has not caught up. However, he did not mention the Co-op bank for a start. It does not have many branches, but it has hundreds of thousands--perhaps millions--of customers who operate successfully. I declare an interest. After Black Wednesday, when my bank speculated with the currency, I moved to the Co-op bank. I left after 33 years and my bank was so concerned about customers withdrawing standing orders and direct debits--I did all that myself--that it never once said, "By the way, it looks as though you have left us after 33 years. Have we done anything to upset you?" I was just a cog in the wheel. Lloyds bank did not give a tinker's cuss about the loss of a customer.
Mr. Rooker:
That is right, but here is the other side of that coin, as I want to strike a balance and be fair. The hon. Member for Teignbridge laboured the point about national savings, but customers of Lloyds TSB and the Co-op can cash cheques and have full access at the post office. That is an important point to put on the record.
Mr. Leigh:
This is a key question for pensioners. After 2003, will pensioners be able to go to their post office and draw their pension without facing bank charges?
Mr. Rooker:
I shall come to that later, but I do not want to avoid answering the question. That is our
The hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) said that only one in 10 pensioners had opted for ACT. In fact, one in three new pensioners opts for it. According to figures issued in November last year, 35 per cent. of the Department's customers were paid by that method, 50 per cent. of new retirement pensioners chose it, and 54 per cent. of new child benefit customers chose it. I do not have all the figures with me, but I know that when I check I shall be able to confirm that 10 per cent. of income support recipients chose it.
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