Standing Committee E
Tuesday 25 May 1999
[Mr. George Stevenson in the Chair]
4.30 pm
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Paul Boateng): I beg to move,
That, during proceedings on the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Bill [Lords], the Committee do meet on Tuesdays at half-past Ten o'clock and at half-past Four o'clock and on Thursdays at half-past One o'clock, except on Thursday 27 May, Tuesday 1 June, Thursday 3 June and Thursday 10 June, when the Committee shall not meet.
May I say at the outset, Mr. Stevenson, how glad we are—those sentiments will be echoed on both sides of the Committee—to be debating the Bill under your chairmanship. You will bring a legendary good humour and, when necessary, a firm smack of discipline to proceedings that I hope will not try your patience too greatly. I should not tempt fate.
There is a breadth of consent and concurrence on the Bill's objectives on both sides of the Committee. Those objectives are to ensure that the courts have forms of sentencing and disposal available to them that will deter young people from engaging in criminal conduct, and to turn around young lives that would otherwise be at risk of further offending.
A range of other measures contained in the second part of the Bill are intended to improve access to justice for people who are currently unable to give of their best evidence in a trial because of their youth, disability or fear at the prospect of testifying. We would all agree that the interests of justice demand that any witness gives of their best and that we should do all that we can to ensure that the context in which it is given is such as to overcome the fear that can sometimes undermine the credibility that would otherwise attach to their testimony.
For those reasons, I hope that we will reach sufficient unanimity for the measure to pass through expeditiously. However, the Committee will certainly have a job to do in ensuring that some of the judgments that we have needed to make to bring the Bill before the Committee are subjected to proper testing and reasoned amendment when they are found to be wanting. There are several issues of balance and proportionality on which we may not yet have found the right way forward. The Committee will have the opportunity to bring the skills and experience of its members to bear on those issues.
For all those reasons, I hope that we will adopt the motion and, after the recess, commence the business of the Committee.
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale): May I replicate the welcome given to you, Mr. Stevenson, by the Minister of State, Home Office, the hon. Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng), and say what a delight it is to find you in the Chair again for our deliberations? It was probably about this time last year that we were engaged in Committee on an extremely technical matter. The sun is already shining. It seems to be our lot to be in Committee during the good weather, but it is made a little less painful by knowing that we shall be under your stewardship. I welcome the opportunity of considering all the matters in the Bill on Tuesdays and Thursdays after the recess.
It is true, as the Minister of State said, that the Committee contains a good deal of expertise. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison), who will speak on a number of the matters in part II of the Bill, will bring his own experience. Were he here, he would join me in welcoming you to the Chair, Mr. Stevenson.
It is often churlish to single out individuals, but may I say how pleased I am that the Committee of Selection has found room for the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) on the Committee? It is difficult for the smaller parties to join in debate on some of these matters. I know that he, particularly, will bring a great deal of experience and knowledge. Without wishing to appear ungracious to the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Russell), I think that the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy will add extra weight to this side of the Committee.
We look forward to exploring a number of matters on Tuesdays and Thursdays. One that the Minister did not mention—the mandatory nature of the referral order in part I—is extremely important. Amendments offering a number of alternative points of view have already been tabled, and we look forward to discussing them after the recess.
The Minister referred to some of the important and complex issues in part II. We are slightly surprised that the Government have not yet tabled any amendments on them. However, as we are not likely to reach them for some time, for the moment, we shall take at face value what the Minister said about the opportunity to improve the drafting of parts of the Bill. We regard it as our duty on Tuesdays and Thursdays to press that point strongly with our own amendments.
Three issues are particularly important—the giving of evidence by video link or even by pre-recorded evidence sessions; the conduct of rape trials, about which there has been a great deal of concern and controversy; and, from clause 33 onwards, the press reporting of criminal incidents involving young people either as victims or as possible perpetrators of offences. Those matters still give rise to a great deal of controversy outside the House. Whereas there is general agreement about the aims, objectives and general intentions of the Bill, there is still some disagreement about how they are best met. There will be plenty for us to explore on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We want to be businesslike and constructive and to ensure, as far as possible, that we avoid making bad law. I hope that when the Bill returns to the other place, their lordships will feel that we have made some improvements, although I suspect that if the Minister gets his way about the mandatory nature of referral orders, it will not be the view of the other place. We are reassured by what the Minister said about the opportunity for improvement and look forward to testing it.
I seek your guidance, Mr. Stevenson—and possibly that of the silent one on the Government Front Bench—on two matters. First, what is the final date on which amendments may be tabled so that they are not starred amendments at our next sitting on Tuesday 8 June? There is only one sitting day before then. Will it be possible to table amendments when the House is not sitting? We would welcome confirmation that amendments tabled up to and including Friday 4 June would qualify for debate as unstarred amendments on Tuesday 8 June. Secondly, it would help us to anticipate how much progress we are likely to make on that day if we knew whether the Government intend the Committee to sit at 10.30 am on Tuesday 8 June, the first day after the recess, or at 4.30 pm.
With those two queries hanging in the air, I reiterate that we look forward to a relatively happy, businesslike and constructive Committee but one, none the less, in which there will be differences.
The Chairman: Amendments tabled by Friday 4 June will not be starred. If there are queries, hon. Members may wish to consult the Clerks. When we meet depends on the sittings motion, which is in the hands of the Government.
Mr. Bob Russell (Colchester): I warmly welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Stevenson. If all is sweetness and light, as the two previous speakers said, we shall not need to meet too often. I therefore look forward to an easy passage for a Bill that in many respects is Liberal Democrat party policy. There will thus be consensus.
Broadly speaking, my party welcomes the Bill. There are matters that need to be considered and tightened up, and Members on the Government and Opposition Front Benches will take that into account. No one could argue with the spirit of giving greater protection to complainants and witnesses, but we should look at the detail of the proposals. We want witnesses to feel as comfortable as possible.
There will, however, be disagreement about reporting—a matter which has been alluded to. I urge the Government to think seriously about the media's reservations.
My party's view is that the alleged victim of rape and the person accused should both be given anonymity until any conviction. I hope that the Government will consider that.
Both sides of the Committee welcome the concept underlying the youth justice panel and the idea of restorative justice. I certainly do. I give the Minister the assurance that I shall try not to be my usual awkward self, so that we can enjoy the sunshine and have as few sittings as possible.
4.45 pm
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy): This is an important Bill. I look forward to our discussions on it. I took part in debates with the Minister when he was in his previous incarnation as an Opposition spokesman. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) for his kind words. I only hope that I can live up to them.
Mr. Boateng: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Ryedale for the approach that he has adopted to the sittings motion and for the approach that he promises to adopt towards our consideration of the Bill. However, whenever the hon. Gentleman talks about being businesslike and constructive, I am glad that I have near me the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth). He knows how to deal with the Opposition when they are being businesslike and constructive.
There is a job of work for us to do. It is important that we get the balance right, so I refer to the proportionality of the measures that we shall introduce. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy will bring considerable experience of these issues to the Committee. I have no doubt that he will help us, as will the hon. Member for Colchester. However, whenever I hear the hon. Member for Colchester, I always feel a bout of ``Focus'' coming on. I suspect that that might happen on several Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Despite those caveats, I am sure that I speak for all members of the Committee when I say that I look forward to those Tuesdays and Thursdays and to serving under your chairmanship, Mr. Stevenson.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That, during proceedings on the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Bill [Lords], the Committee do meet on Tuesdays at half-past Ten o'clock and at half-past Four o'clock and on Thursdays at half-past One o'clock, except on Thursday 27 May, Tuesday 1 June, Thursday 3 June and Thursday 10 June, when the Committee shall not meet.
The Chairman: I remind the Committee that there is a financial resolution in connection with the Bill. Copies are available in the Room. I also remind Members that, as a general rule, adequate notice should be given of amendments. My co-Chairman and I do not intend to call starred amendments, including any starred amendments that may be reached during an afternoon sitting of the Committee.
Resolved,
That the Bill be considered in the following Order, namely: Clauses 1 to 13, Schedule 1, Clauses 14 to 47, Schedule 2, Clauses 48 to 58, Schedule 3, Clauses 59 to 61, New Clauses, New Schedules, Clauses 62 to 65, Schedules 4 to 7, Clause 66.—[Mr. Boateng.]
Further consideration adjourned.—[Mr. Mike Hall.]
Adjourned accordingly at twelve minutes to Five o'clock till Tuesday 8 June at half-past Four o'clock.
The following Members attended the Committee:
Stevenson, Mr. George (Chairman)
Boateng, Mr.
Dawson, Mr.
Day, Mr.
Drown, Ms Julia
Flint, Caroline
Greenway, Mr.
Hall, Mr. Mike
Howarth, Mr. George
Hughes, Ms Beverley
Llwyd, Mr.
Russell, Mr. Bob
Smith, Angela
Stuart, Ms
Syms, Mr.
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