| Draft North-South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 1999
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The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is not discussing the draft order before us, but a different order. I know that he will look at the title, and that he will return to order. I have given him a lot of room, but he must keep in order. Mr. Wilshire: I appreciate your earlier generosity, Mr. Jones. I had something to get off my chest and you have kindly allowed me to do so. The draft order and its schedule refer to PEACE as an acronym and to another acronym in the original order. I accept your point, Mr. Jones, about other acronyms, except to state that I should be grateful for an explanation of them. The existing order and the draft order both refer to PEACE. If we are to amend the existing order and to bring the PEACE programme within its scope, the Minister should tell the Committee what it is. If we are to give the body the power to deal with it, we should be given an explanation of what has happened in the past. What projects have there been, how many were there, and where were they sited? What has happened to them? How much taxpayers' money--European and British--has been spent on the PEACE programme? If we are being told that the original order, when it is amended, has to relate to the future PEACE programme, we should also be told the expectations of the British Government in relation to any such programme. What exactly is going to happen under the order? Who can apply for the programme? How do they apply? What sort of application do they have to send in? What sort of details do they have to supply? What is required in terms of independent costings and verification? We should be told how, when the order has been amended, decisions will be taken using the new powers that we have granted to the body. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire raised relevant points in that respect. Will the projects be exclusively in Northern Ireland, exclusively in the Republic of Ireland, or cross-border? I have some knowledge of such matters because I served for a number of years on the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs. I am aware of some of the cross-border work that has been done, and I applaud it. However, we need to be told whether the new powers will be used for projects exclusively in Northern Ireland. If so, how many will there be, how much will they cost and where will they be? The body is made up of representatives of the two sovereign nations, yet the order gives powers to the republic of Ireland to decide matters that relate exclusively to Northern Ireland. Why does the Minister consider that to be appropriate? Article 6 on page 19 of the original order states:
If, by approving the draft order, we are to extend the body's scope to a new range of matters, we should be told what those powers are. I do not like voting for a measure that gives a body 'all the powers necessary'--that phrase sounds draconian, and not at all democratic. The Minister therefore owes us an explanation. The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is referring to the original order. He must return to the order that we are debating today. Mr. Wilshire: I am aware of the dangers of challenging that ruling, Mr. Jones. However, we have before us an order that states that a new set of powers will be given to a body. We are therefore entitled to ask what the body's powers will be before we vote on the order and handover new matters for it to deal with. The phrase 'all the powers necessary' will then refer to the new matters on which we are being asked to vote this morning. It is in that spirit, Mr. Jones, that I am making my remarks. Rather than attempting to debate the original order, I am trying to clarify the powers that we are dealing with in approving the order before us and thereby giving the body these new responsibilities. I understand your ruling, Mr. Jones, and I shall not pursue the matter any further. However, I shall, if I may, refer to the original order. I am treading as carefully as possible to make it clear that it is the draft order that is at stake. The draft order also has to be considered in relation to the exercise of functions on page 18 of the original order. I should be grateful if the Minister explained how the powers that are set out there are relevant to the draft order and what will happen when the new matters are included in the responsibilities of the body. There is another issue that needs clarifying. We are told that the new initiatives will pass to the body, so it is relevant to know who will exercise the powers being granted by the draft order. Who are the members of the body whom we are being asked to provide with additional powers? Who appoints the people whom we are being asked to provide with additional powers? How will the body be funded? Will it be through British taxpayers' money, Irish taxpayers' money, or will it be a mixture? What are the proportions: will British taxpayers be paying more than their fair share, which is usually the case when it comes to these matters? We pay the bills, and we get all the stick. That is an important point. If we give this body extra powers, I should like to know whether we are handing powers to an unelected group of people--which is what I assume they are--who will then have direct power over part of the sovereign territory of the United Kingdom, without any reference back to those who were elected to represent the people of Northern Ireland. If so, that is a disgrace, and I want nothing to do with it. I am keen to make absolutely certain that I fully understand what I am being asked to vote for. Will the Minister confirm that the draft order makes three changes? The first change comes under the heading:
in which article 2(2) states:
'(4) In this Order 'supplementary Agreement' means the Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland constituted by the exchange of letters dated 18 June 1999, the texts of which are set out in Schedule 1A.'.'
Am I correct in believing that that is the first of the changes we are being asked to make this morning? Again, if I understand correctly, the second change that we are being asked to make is to be found in article 2(3), which states:
'(3A) For the purpose of paragraphs (2) and (3), Part 4 of Annex 1 and Part 4 of Annex 2 to the Agreement shall be construed in accordance with the supplementary Agreement.'.'
I should be grateful if the Minister would tell me if I am correct in believing that that is the second change. If so, members of the Committee will understand why I lost so much sleep last night trying to understand what on earth this was all about. Am I correct in understanding that the third change that we are being asked to make is to be found in article 2(4). which states
We turn over the page, and there is the schedule. I suspect, however, that if I tried to read the entire schedule into the record, I might try your patience little too far, Mr. Jones, so I shall not run that risk. I shall merely ask the Minister to tell me whether I understand the provision correctly, and that the third of the changes that we are being asked to make is to be found there and involves the inclusion of the schedule that is set out on page 2 of the draft order. For my sins, I serve on the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, and it is my lot to see the large amount of paperwork that swills around between Foreign Ministers, foreign Ministries and embassies. The order is a classic example of such paperwork. Can the Minister tell us why it is necessary to use up so much paper with all this flowery language? 'I have the honour to this' and 'I have the honour to that'--round and round it goes. All we need is one crisp, short sentence stating what we are trying to achieve. If the paperwork had contained one crisp, short sentence, my contribution to the debate might also have been expressed in one crisp, short sentence. But because we have been given all this gobbledygook and flowery language, it has been necessary to press the Minister. I look forward to his answers.
10.26 amMr. Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Valley): I echo the comments of the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire, who talked about the importance of maintaining the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom in the context of developing the implementation bodies. I hope that the Minister can assure us that, whatever programmes are developed in terms of implementation bodies in general--specifically including the EU programmes that will fall under this particular implementation body--the territorial integrity of Northern Ireland will be upheld by his Government and respected by the Irish Government. The Belfast agreement gave rise to the implementation bodies in strand II. It proposed the formation of a North-South Ministerial Council and under that, the establishment of a number of implementation bodies to take forward various programmes and initiatives to promote co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. One of those programmes involved EU matters, with which the order deals. As I understand it, the purpose of the order is to update the manner of those EU programmes in accordance with recent changes made as a result of the Berlin summit. Thus, the order will bring the proposals for an implementation body dealing with the EU matters into line with what was agreed in Berlin. Given my constituency and my Unionist perspective, I want the Minister's assurance that the implementation body that is being established to deal with EU programmes will, under its operational remit, ensure that those programmes are applied fairly and even-handedly. The Belfast agreement says that the implementation bodies will have a 'clear operational remit'. I hope that the Minister will clarify the operational remit of this particular implementation body. Part of that remit is to ensure that there is balance and equity in the application of those funds to the two traditions in Northern Ireland. That has not been the case in the past--there has been an imbalance: areas where there is a higher proportion of Unionists tend to get a lesser share of the funding from EU programmes. I hope that the new body will address that issue and that EU programmes will be applied more equitably in future. The EU programmes were developed in Northern Ireland to promote peace and reconciliation. Surely among the most important tenets of reconciliation are that people feel that they are getting a fair deal, that we have an equitable society, and that the application of funding from EU programmes is fair and balanced. I hope that the Minister will reassure the Unionist community that the implementation's body's operational remit will be applied in a fair and equitable manner. Scrutiny is also important. It is important that implementation bodies are properly scrutinised if the Northern Ireland Assembly gets off the ground and power is transferred, and that that scrutiny is above board. We in Northern Ireland have laboured under government by the Anglo-Irish process. The Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference has been less than open in its dealings. I hope that that will not be the case with the new implementation bodies and that they will be open to scrutiny, not only by the Assembly, but by the general public. Will the Minister confirm whether part of the operational remit of the implementation body for EU matters will be a requirement to make annual reports on the application of funding from EU programmes and clarify whether that will be assessed on the basis of the apportioning of funding to the Unionist and nationalist traditions? The Minister will also be aware of the draft treaty that was mentioned in the House of Commons yesterday. It relates to the implementation bodies and to the North-South Ministerial Council. The draft treaty, which is in the form of an exchange of letters between the British and Irish Governments, deals with the failsafe mechanism. If the Assembly is suspended because someone defaults on his commitments, that mechanism will apply also to the North-South Ministerial Council and to the implementation bodies. Will the Minister clarify what effect the draft treaty and the exchange of letters between the British and Irish Governments will have on the implementation body, should a party be in default in the Northern Ireland Assembly, with the result that the failsafe mechanism is applied to the north-south implementation bodies and, in particular, to that body proposed in the order? I look forward to the Minister providing clarification on those matters.
10.32 am
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| ©Parliamentary copyright 1999 | Prepared 14 July 1999 |
