Eighth Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation
Wednesday 24 March 1999
[Mr. Barry Jones in the Chair]
Traffic Areas (Reorganisation) (Wales) Order 1999
4.30 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the
Environment, Transport and the Regions (Ms Glenda
Jackson): I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the Traffic Areas
(Reorganisation) (Wales) Order 1999.
The order's purpose is to create a new Welsh traffic
area to replace existing arrangements, under which north
Wales is part of the north-western traffic area and south
Wales is a separate traffic area. It may help if I explain
the reason for the change, who it will affect, and how.
For the purposes of administration of goods and public
services vehicle licensing systems and the registration of
scheduled bus services outside London, Great Britain is
divided into eight traffic areas. Licences are granted by
traffic commissioners appointed to those areas.
There have been a number of reviews into the licensing
system and its administration. In 1991, the number of
traffic areas was reduced from 11 to eight. In 1995, an
efficiency scrutiny recommended that the number be
reduced to six. The previous Government decided to close
the traffic area offices in Cardiff and Manchester as a
cost-cutting measure and to restructure the traffic area
boundaries. They decided that the south Wales traffic area
would be administered from Birmingham, and the
north-west traffic area from Leeds. The traffic
commissioner for the north-eastern traffic area was also
appointed to the north-west traffic area.
The efficiency scrutiny stressed the need for modern
information systems. In 1996, it was announced that
restructuring of traffic area boundaries would be
suspended while further work was done on computer
systems.
It was clear when we took office that major investment
would be needed to replace and modernise the obsolete
information system and working practices. The work will
take some time to complete; restructuring the boundaries
could be some years away. Therefore, we decided to
introduce proposals for a traffic area for Wales in advance
of any wider restructuring.
The changes will affect operators, who will have to
obtain a licence. A licence will be issued for operators in
each traffic area in which they have an operating centre.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley): The Minister
mentioned new information technology. Can she say how
money is being invested in it, from whose budget the
money will come and when it will be fully operational?
Ms Jackson: A study is taking place into the issues
that the hon. Gentleman raises. The desired outcome is
that such systems should offer flexibility. They will
inherently provide a much better service, not only to
operators but to traffic commissioners when they issue
licences. I am unable to give figures now, but I shall
inquire into the detail and write to the hon. Gentleman
and all members of the Committee when I have the
information.
I was saying that operators must have a licence for each
traffic area in which they have an operating centre. They
must specify centres and state how many vehicles will be
kept at each.
They must also inform the Traffic Commissioner of
registration marks and changes of vehicle.
The order makes detailed provision for dealing with
licences affected by the boundary changes, to ensure a
smooth transition and continuity of traffic commissioner
functions and responsibilities. Broadly, the order provides
that, on reorganisation, a former south Wales traffic area
licence becomes a Welsh traffic area licence; a
north-western traffic area licence, which specifies only
operating centres in Wales, becomes a Welsh traffic area
licence; and a north-western traffic area licence, which
specifies operating centres in both England and Wales
will be split, in consultation with the licence holder, to
create a Welsh traffic area licence for the operating centre
and vehicles based in Wales and an amended
north-western traffic area licence for the operating centres
and vehicles based in England. Where, as a consequence,
an operator has two Welsh traffic area licences, those will
be amalgamated in due course we estimate within five
years.
A consultation exercise was carried out with the
industries concerned and a wide range of other interested
parties in England and Wales. Most operators will be
unaffected because they hold only one licence, which will
fall within the new boundary.
Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda): Under the new
arrangements, if the traffic commissioner for the Welsh
traffic area is the person who immediately before the
reorganisation was traffic commissioner for south Wales,
will road haulage operators in north Wales have to refer
to Cardiff with respect to their licences?
Ms Jackson: No. I shall be touching on that issue later
in my remarks, but the administration will, as now,
operate from the office in Birmingham.
Mr. Rogers: My hon. Friend says that the
administrative headquarters will be in Birmingham. Is that
for North and south Wales?
Ms Jackson: As I am sure my hon. Friend is aware,
we are discussing an order that will make one traffic area
for Wales, combining north and south Wales. At the
moment, the separate north Wales traffic area is
administered from the north-western traffic area, namely
the office in Leeds. The south Wales traffic area is, I
believe, administered from the office in Birmingham. The
new all-Wales traffic area will be administered from the
office in Birmingham.
The effect on staffing in the traffic area offices will be minor equivalent to two posts.
Mr. Evans: Does the Minister not detect some irony in
the fact that she is announcing streamlining to put matters
under one-Wales auspices, but that the headquarters will
be in Birmingham? What would she say to the suggestion
that the headquarters for the all-Wales area should be
based in Wales?
Ms Jackson: I think that that issue will be examined
after the study on the modernisation of the computer
system to which I referred. What I find truly ironic is that
the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) should
have asked that question, in the light of the fact that it
was a previous Conservative Administration who split up
Wales in that respect.
The traffic commissioner for the west midlands and
south Wales traffic areas will retain responsibility for the
west midlands traffic area. His responsibilities for south
Wales will be extended to all of Wales. If our proposal
for a Welsh traffic area is approved, it is, as I have said,
intended that it should be run from Birmingham, which
already deals with the larger number of operators based
in Wales. However, when a traffic commissioner decides
to hold a public inquiry, for example, it will always be
held locally either by the commissioner or his deputies.
One of the deputies for the Wales traffic area is a Welsh
speaker.
The order amends the Traffic Areas (Reorganisation)
Order 1990 by defining the limits of the north-western
traffic area to exclude the former counties of Clwyd and
Gwynedd and to include their areas in the new all-Wales
traffic area. I commend the order to the Committee.
4.40 pm
Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden): May I first give
the apologies of my hon. Friend the Member for North
Essex (Mr. Jenkin) who, as a result of the change to
today's business, has to be on the Front Bench to resume
the debate where it broke off for the Adjournment?
Also, with respect, there was the smallest error in
naming my hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire
(Mr. Townend), who is listed as Mr. Tony Townend on
the Committee membership list? That has now been
corrected by the Private Bill Office.
The Minister confirmed our worst fears: that this is
principally a politically correct measure. I have the
distinct impression from listening to the Minister's logic
in explaining the change that it is a chicken-and-egg case.
Unless I am much mistaken, the initial changes to the
traffic area boundaries were defended on the basis of
efficiency. The administration centres were relocated to
places such as Birmingham and Leeds for reasons of
efficiency. Yet, the traffic areas are once again being
re-ordered in advance of a study on the future location of
an administrative centre. Will consideration be given in
that study to increased efficiency and cost savings or to
additional costs caused by the changes?
We are principally worried about a small group of
people who will undoubtedly be losers as a result of the
changes. Will the Minister say how many people will now
have to buy two licences who previously had to buy only
one? The economy of north Wales is always orientated
towards the north-west and the businesses in north-west
Wales naturally orientate towards Manchester. Therefore,
the creation of an artificial boundary within which a
second licence must now be purchased will add an extra
£680 to the costs of those businesses.
Will the Minister say how many of those affected are
truckers? I cannot resist saying that the haulage industry
is seriously affected by other changes that the
Government have made. The price of diesel fuel has been
increased by 12 per cent. and the vehicle excise duty for
38-tonne trucks is not only the highest in Europe, but
more than twice the European average. The same people
will have to face a considerable extra burden.
My Constituency is close enough to Birmingham for
me to appreciate that the Government's decision to retain
the administrative centre for the new traffic area there will
guarantee jobs for which some of my constituents may be
grateful. However, it seems curious, as the hon. Member
for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) logically said, that the
administrative centre is not located within the new traffic
area, particularly as Cardiff was used as the administrative
centre for the previous traffic area. We therefore join the
hon. Gentleman in asking the Minister to reconsider that.
We want to know what the Government's primary
motivation is for the order. We want to be reassured that
it is not simply a matter of political correctness, but that
efficiency and savings will result from reviewing the
areas. We want the Minister to accept that this is a
chicken-and-egg solution where to use another idiom
the cart has been put before the horse before a proper
study of the benefits of such changes has been carried out.
4.45 pm
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