| Draft Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 (Specified Organisations) Order 1999
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The Chairman: Order. I am listening extremely carefully to the hon. Gentleman. He is beginning to stray into the policy of the early release of prisoners, but that policy has already been passed by this Parliament. We are here to consider the narrow inclusion or exclusion of specific organisations on the list. I would ask the hon. Gentleman to be aware of the terms of this afternoon's debate. Mr. Moss: I am grateful to you, Mr. O'Hara, for bringing me into line. I wanted to make the point that some of the organisations that are proscribed by these orders and specified in other legislation are the very organisations that are attempting to destabilise the situation in Northern Ireland and bring about a collapse of the agreement. Although I may have strayed a little, I wanted to relate the orders to the actions and motives of the organisations that they name. Indeed, Mrs. Rosemary Nelson was murdered by, and on the admission of, one of the organisations named in the order: the Red Hand Defenders. Therefore, I do not think that I was straying too far from the order. Will the Minister confirm that the RUC will indeed have a role to play in the investigation of Mrs. Nelson's murder, and that propaganda will not be allowed to cloud the issue or be used to undermine the role of the RUC and its standing in the community? Over the past few months, there has been fragmentation among paramilitaries—perhaps it has been greater on the loyalist side than on the Sinn Fein-IRA side—but that problem may increase rather than decrease in future. It would be helpful if the Minister were to tell the Committee how he and the Government see that developing, and whether there is evidence of further fragmentation—perhaps on the nationalist and republican side. I opened my remarks by saying that we welcome the orders; we welcome the Minister's explanation, and we shall fully support them at the end of the debate.
4.45 pmMr. Norman Baker (Lewes): May I briefly place on record the full support of the Liberal Democrats for the orders, which are proportionate, sensible and necessary? The Government have adopted a very sensible approach towards the difficult situation in Northern Ireland. I congratulate them on steering the ship so close to the harbour. This is not the time to rock the boat, and we want to support the Government in ensuring that the boat reaches the harbour and wish them every success during the next few days.
4.46 pmMr. Ingram: I thank the hon. Members for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) and for Lewes (Mr. Baker) for their general and specific welcomes for the way in which the Government have handled what have undoubtedly been very difficult negotiations and the complex situation in which those negotiations have been set. The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire asked two specific questions. The first concerned the role of the RUC in investigation. If he has read certain newspaper reports, he will know that there are more than rumours. It is clear that groups are campaigning specifically to broaden what has happened since the tragic murder of Rosemary Nelson to develop some form of inquiry. Clearly, what is involved is a murder investigation. Because of the international sensitivity of the issue, which the hon. Gentleman recognised, the Chief Constable acted promptly to put in place senior officers from another force to deal with it and called in the FBI to work alongside them. The hon. Gentleman welcomed the Chief Constable's initiative. I am no expert on the detail, but I understand that about 40 to 60 police officers are involved in such a murder investigation. They are RUC officers. A murder investigation gets under way from the minute that someone loses their life, and it is right that officers are immediatley engaged in trying to find those who have carried out those acts. That is in the interests of each and every one of us. The RUC will conduct the investigation under the direction of the chief constable of Kent, Mr. Phillips. He will have control over the lines of inquiry—deciding which way to investigate the matter and pursue the prosecution of the case to find those who have carried out those acts. We all hope that they are swiftly brought to justice. On the hon. Gentleman's question about fragmentation of other groups, we have witnessed fragmentation and dissident groups, as they are called, within the republican movement, and there are clearly other groups on the loyalist side of the equation. That is why we are proposing proscription of two of those loyalist groups. We hope that such fragmentation does not happen, but there can be no certainty in the dimensions that terrorism brings to the politics of Northern Ireland. Mr. Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Valley): We are today considering the narrow issue of those organisations that are listed, which are excluded from the benefit of the prisoner release scheme. The Minister will be aware that all the organisations that are enjoying the release of their prisoners have been engaged in various acts of violence. As well as addressing the issue of monitoring the possibility of splintering among those groups, will he assure us that he and the Secretary of State, under the terms of the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998, will continue closely to monitor the activities of all organisations that are enjoying the release of their prisoners? If it is necessary to do so, will he return to the House to deal with organisations in blatant breach of their ceasefires or of the conditions laid down in the 1998 Act in respect of release of prisoners? Mr. Ingram: All prisoners will be released on licence, as they have been to date. Any breach of that licence, such as fundraising for an organisation that is not specified and which the Secretary of State has judged to be in breach of the ceasefire, will be dealt with. The danger of constantly asking about such matters is that people tend to look to the black side of the equation and to ignore all of the developments that have occurred—an issue that arose during question time in the House today. That is why I listed in my opening comments all of the developments that have occurred, and mentioned the fact that the incidence of murder, attempted murder and related violence that is usually associated with Northern Ireland is much less than ever before. Such crimes still occur too much, and some groups that are still active are still intent on carrying out more acts of violence against citizens elsewhere. That is part of the reality, rather than the whole of it. A bigger part of the reality is the substantial change in the mindsets of the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland who are signed up to the peace process, as they always were. More and more people want to share in it, and support comes even from people who would probably have supported the extremes in the past. That is the benefit of the peace process. More can flow from it when parties currently engaged in the very difficult negotiations reach a conclusion and achieve the formation of the Executive and the decommissioning of illegally-held weapons, which is another important part of the Good Friday agreement. Once those two strands are settled, Northern Ireland will be put into a completely new environment, and into new political, social and economic circumstances. That is what its people genuinely want. The debate must therefore be balanced, and should not constantly focus on the difficult circumstances that we have to face. I began to address the issue of fragmentation of groups, We have witnessed the fragmentation of groups both on the Republican and the Loyalist sides that are intent on carrying out evil acts. That is why I said that the Government are committed to maintaining our approach and to bringing such people to justice. That remains our resolve. The orders show us two parts of the debate. One is that a group that was involved in evil terrorist acts has been de-specified and is becoming part of the process of change. The other is that two break-away groups in the Loyalist community which are carrying out evil acts of murder and attempted murder have been proscribed and will be pursued with all the resources that we have to hand to bring them to justice and to achieve, I hope, a lasting peace in Northern Ireland. Question put and agreed to. Resolved,
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| Prepared 24 March 1999 | |
