Standing Committee A
Tuesday 12 January 1999
(Morning)
[Mr. Peter Atkinson in the Chair]
10.30 am
The Minister for the Environment (Mr. Michael Meacher): I beg to move,
That, if proceedings on the Water Industry Bill are not completed
at this day's sittings, the Committee do meet on Thursday 14 January
at Nine o'clock and Four o'clock.
Before Christmas I tabled a motion to cover today's
sittings. It did not cover further sittings because on
16 December the House of Commons was to consider a
Modernisation Committee report that suggested that
Standing Committees meet earlier on Thursdays and not
at the customary time.
As members of the Committee will know, that report
was agreed and, in line with its recommendations, today's
sittings motion suggests that we sit from 9 am on
Thursday. That recommendation has been agreed through
the usual channels. [Interruption.] I am glad that such an
announcement has produced such hilarity and joy among
all quarters. It has been agreed that we should complete
consideration of the Bill on Thursday and, to ensure that
we have sufficient time to enable us to do so, I propose
that we meet from 4 pm on Thursday rather than the usual
time of 4.30 pm.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2
Prohibition of use of limiting devices
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
The Parliamentar Under-Secretary of State for the
Environment, Transport and the Regions (Mr. Alan
Meale): We have talked before about how important
water is in terms of personal health and hygiene, and
public health. When we met before Christmas, my right
honourable Friend the Minister for the Environment
explained our approach to the disconnection of water
supply to domestic and other vulnerable premises. Several
water companies are either considering or, in some
instances, actually carrying out, the replacement of cut-off
systems in budget payment units with trickle valves. They
are doing so in the light of the court cases banning
disconnecting budget payment units. The Bill will outlaw
household disconnection.
We believe that the prohibition on domestic
disconnection is vital to protect health and hygiene.
Anyone who agrees with that statement must agree also
that devices which reduce the flow of water available for
use to such a small trickle that it can take up to a quarter
of an hour to fill the kitchen sink to enable washing up to
be done should be banned, too. Indeed, the hon. Member
for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) accepted on Second
Reading that, if we were to ban disconnections, we must
also ban limiting devices.
Mr. Donald Gorrie (Edinburgh, West): Like other
members of the Committee, I received a briefing from the
Chartered Institute on Environmental Health that
contained a couple of points that are worth considering in
connection with the clause. It feels that the wording of the
clause is unsound in that proposed section 63A(1) states
that a water undertaker is guilty if it uses a limiting device
"with the intention of enforcing payment of charges" .
The institute points out that it is difficult to prove such an
intention and that it would be possible for an undertaker
to produce a spacious, but perhaps legally convincing,
argument that that was not the intention of such action.
Does the Minister consider that the institute's point has
any merit and, if so, will be reconsider the wording of
the provision?
Furthermore, proposed section 63A(2)(b) states that
the apparatus
"is designed to restrict the use which may be made of water" .
The institute does not think that that is the correct
wording, because it restricts amount rather than use. I am
not an expert, but those seem to be two sensible points.
Mr. Meale: We are convinced that the wording is
correct as it stands, but it has been valuable that the hon.
Gentleman raised those two definitions in terms of what
the Bill should do. We are sympathetic to his objectives,
but are confident that the clause would fulfil them.
Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford): I ask the
Minister for some information and advice, rather than
express an opinion. Some consumers, because of their
financial circumstances, like the idea of pre-payments for
water, as they may already use such payments for
electricity, gas and other essential services. How might
the Government try to help such people? I understand that
the Bill will not allow pre-payment schemes, and might
cause such people financial hardship. I accept that such
people constitute a very small minority of the population,
but they may prefer such a scheme.
Mr. Meacher: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point.
Many low-income consumers with budgetary difficulties
want some consistency and regularity in their financial
arrangements. The Government do not want to undermine
such people and want to assist when we can.
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that budget payment
units as currently constituted were rejected in the High
Court because they are disconnecting, or, in the parlance,
self-disconnecting, which leads to a stoppage of the water
supply. If we can find alternative mechanisms that assist
with budgeting and do not lead to such disconnection, we
would certainly be sympathetic.
Mr. Burns: I notice that the Minister said "If we can
find" . What work has he and his officials been doing to
try to find ideas? I accept that it is a horrendously
complicated problem, given the contents of the Bill.
Mr. Meacher: It is not for the Government to
undertake such research. We encourage water companies
to think of new and imaginative tariffs, new financial
arrangements and methods of payment that will benefit
and make it easier for consumers. Under clause 4, the
Director General of Water Services must accept such
proposals, but we strongly encourage them. I hope that
water companies are carefully investigating the matter.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3
Undertakers to charge in accordance with charges schemes
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mr. Meale: Charges schemes will be the mechanism
for delivering many of the important new protections for
water consumers included in the Bill. In particular, under
clause 5, the Secretary of State will have powers to
specify protection to be given to vulnerable customers
with high essential water use living in properties with
water meters. It is important that the new protections and
improved customer choice are not undermined by large
numbers of customers being charged on the basis of
agreements. The clause will ensure that domestic
consumers are charged on the basis of a charging scheme.
It will ensure also that everyone knows the system of
tariffs under which he or she is charged, and provide
greater consistency in charging arrangements.
We are aware that there are some, historic agreements
between water companies and domestic consumers that
we do not want to disturb. The clause gives scope for
agreements to be entered into covering premises that are
not dwellings if water companies and non-domestic
customers want to do so. The clause therefore provides
important protection, while leaving the opportunity for
agreements where they are commercially attractive.
I therefore urge that the clause stand part of the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Making and approval of charges schemes
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset): I beg to move
amendment No. 26, in page 3, leave out lines 3 to 13
and insert
`(2) At the end, there is inserted
"(6) Before making a charges scheme under this section, a
relevant undertaker shall submit a draft of its proposed
charges scheme to the Director, and in making the scheme
shall take into account any views that the Director may
express in relation to it.
(7) A relevant undertaker need only take into account any views
expressed by the Director under subsection (6) above which
it receives within one month of submitting its draft charges
scheme to him.
(8) In expressing any views under subsection (6) above, the
Director shall have regard to any guidance issued by the
Secretary of State under section 143A(2) below." .'.
The Chairman: With this, we may take the following
amendments: No.2, in page 3, line 17, at end add
`(10) The Director in exercising his power under subsection (6)
shall act in accordance with the objective of achieving sustainable
development.'.
No. 22, in page 3, line 17, at end add
`(10) The Director may not exercise his power under subsection
(6) above for the purpose of substantially affecting the degree to
which charges reflect costs incurred by undertakers.'.
No. 27, in clause 5, page 3, leave out from end of line
19 to end of line 10 on page 4 and insert
`143A. (1) In making a charges scheme under section 143
above, a relevant undertaker shall have regard to any guidance
issued by the Secretary of State in relation to the matters listed in
subsection (2) below.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above, the Secretary of
State may issue guidance relating to the following
(a) the factors to be taken into account in relation to the fixing,
calculating and imposing of charges;
(b) the making available to consumers of alternative bases of
charging; and
(c) the taking into account of the problems faced by the aged,
ill and disabled.
(3) The Secretary of State shall arrange for any guidance given
by him under subsection (2) above to be published in such a manner
as he considers appropriate.'.
No. 28, in clause 5, page 3, line 32, after
"consumers" , insert
`including bases of charging designed to meet the requirements of
different customers and regional variations and to take into account
conservation and efficiency initiatives'.
| 
