123. Will the Police Federation be taken on board in support of what is being done?
  (Mr O'Dowd) Yes. Except for one area with which there is a feeling of discomfort I believe that they will sign up to the rest. The one exception is fast-tracking[1] which is focused on the minority of people who need to be got out of the job straight away, not just kept on for a long period of time either on sick leave or whatever where the evidence as to their criminality is from the outset overwhelming.

  124. Every honest police officer wants to see effective action taken on corruption and misbehaviour?
  (Mr O'Dowd) Yes—and the staff officers are fully behind that comment.

  125. Medical retirement seems to have been the subject of a good deal of abuse. Although the percentage is coming down I understand that the overall figure for 1997/98 stands at 38 per cent. Undoubtedly, some cases in that category are genuine but others are not. Do you have any comments to make on that matter?
  (Mr O'Dowd) We have a whole book full of comments we made in our report on Lost Time which has focused the attention of chiefs and the staff associations over the past 12 months. You will know that it has run to as high as 59 per cent (on average). It came down substantially. What concerned us was the range. If I identify 1996/97 (referring to page 94 of the 1997/8 HMCIC Annual report), how can it be that the range is from 16 to 77 per cent? In some of those forces one sees that they have reduced their ill-health and medical retirement figures by 24 and 28 per cent respectively. It is a tricky matter. There should always be genuine medical retirement for the officer who faces a tough job at the front line. Surprisingly, we found that it was a management problem and that it was not being managed effectively and it was not always a question of people taking advantage of the system. The other difficulty is that there is no honourable exit. When a person loses his vocation or has had enough for whatever reason the only way is to soldier on or go for medical retirement, if he or she is so inclined. We have firmly recommended that there should be an honourable exit, that people can move out and take their pension contributions with them and not try to stay on or abuse the system or take advantage of it. There are some associated regulatory aspects to the medical and personnel side of the process that are being looked at but I shall not go into them. The bottom line is that it was not being managed very effectively.

  126. Lay people like ourselves obviously have nowhere near the knowledge that you have of the police force. However, no one can dispute the strains under which officers work, but another aspect of canteen culture has grown up in which this type of abuse has developed to such an extent that it has become quite a major problem?
  (Mr O'Dowd) That is so. You use the word "abuse". The staff associations would take offence at that. They say that it is not abuse but a management problem. It almost becomes a matter of system. At 26Ö years which is the time to peak for medical retirement for index-linking the graph shows quite a rise, which is perhaps not by chance alone. But they are the options available and it was not being properly managed in a number of areas. There was abuse in a number of areas including discipline cases. People who had committed very serious offences went sick. That is a matter which this committee has dealt with very effectively in a different area. There was abuse of the system but it was not being managed. It has been shown that some forces in one year have reduced it by 10 to 20 per cent. It is not just a case of managing it in a more vigorous way; it is a matter of considering the role of the occupational health units. Some people can be put back to work by rehabilitative duties and good physiotherapy. In some forces that was not always available. In some forces there has been quite a sea change in providing good occupational help and support to officers to put them back to work, not just to let them leave the service which means that one loses the investment in their careers.

  127. You spoke about the weakness of management. It has been pretty long standing. Why has it taken so long to deal with given that the urgency of the situation is very much in the public domain?
  (Mr O'Dowd) There have been major concerns expressed by the Commissioner and other chief constables about the perceived ineffectiveness of the police disciplinary system. Before 1995 it did not really matter to the same extent because it fell under the line in county council budgets. Therefore, whatever the cost of pensions it was picked up through the treasurer and the county council. Once the new financial arrangements came in it came above the line. Chief constables then realised that this was costing a fortune and started to think how to bring down the figure. It was at about that time that we started our work to demonstrate that a lot more could be done in that direction.

  128. To go back to corruption for one moment, one aspect is what is known as "noble cause" corruption. Someone connected with the Police Federation once said to me that there was nothing wrong with perjury committed by an honest officer in pursuit of a good cause. That idea has been around for some years, although I understand there has been an attempt to clamp down on it recently?
  (Mr O'Dowd) Sir Paul coined the expression a number of years ago. It lies at the heart of integrity and it is criminal. In no way do I support it. One of the problems for officers is the performance regime in which they find themselves. They may say that if they are being pushed on detection they will go for domestic violence and other matters and that will help with the figures. But it goes to the heart of integrity. For that reason one needs sound audit to ensure that one eradicates that kind of behaviour.

  129. One of the difficulties is that when some years down the line a person is caught out, whether it is perjury, perverting the course of justice and so on, there do not appear to be many consequences.
  (Mr O'Dowd) That may well be the case for different reasons. They should be followed through. Often the person has retired from the service and so discipline is out of the window. But if there are criminal charges that can be proved—I take by example the Guildford and West Midlands cases—it is a matter for the investigating officer to pursue it vigorously to see where they can be sustained. It is for the Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether in the public interest there is sufficient evidence to pursue the matter. All I can say is that perhaps the evidence has not been forthcoming.

  130. Or perhaps the Crown Prosecution Service has not been as vigorous as it should be?
  (Mr O'Dowd) That may well be the case.

  131. Do you think it is possible?
  (Mr O'Dowd) I cannot answer that because I do not know what the balance of evidence has been. I know that John Stevens in the Met and those in other forces take the view that if they have bad officers and the necessary evidence is available they will press the CPS to test those cases in court. Sometimes they are disappointed that the matter has not proceeded through the judicial process. It is as relevant now as it is with past cases.

  132. Perhaps this is a potential subject for one of your thematic inquiries. I think I am right in saying that in just about every one of the major miscarriages of justice of which I am aware no police officer, or anyone who has been responsible in any way, whether it be forensic scientists or others, has ever suffered more than mild inconvenience as a result?
  (Mr O'Dowd) My memory tells me that there were some problems in relation to some forensic science reports, but I am not sure whether they have resulted in prosecutions.

  133. There has never been a prosecution. That breeds a culture of impunity?
  (Mr O'Dowd) Yes. But at the end of the day one comes back to the sufficiency of evidence.

  134. One of the problems is that to the layman there does appear to be evidence. There has been another big case involving Devon and Cornwall. That is still subject to appeal. However, if what is alleged to have happened is found to have happened no consequences will follow, and that is after years of prevarication. That creates a serious problem.
  (Mr O'Dowd) I accept your proposition that it creates a problem. But at the end of the day has the investigating officer tried rigorously to find evidence to substantiate the allegation in order to lay criminal charges against the officer? If he has put that case before the CPS—it is not passing the buck—and it decides that there is an insufficiency of evidence it may not bode well for public perception but the matter cannot be taken any further.

  135. I understand that the CPS has a role to play in this. But nought out of quite a large number is very damaging?
  (Mr O'Dowd) Yes.

  136. Obviously, you are not a prosecuting authority. But is there is a feeling that to prosecute such officers will bring about a further loss of confidence in the Police Service and therefore there is an inbuilt bias not to take legal action against such people?
  (Mr O'Dowd) I would hope not, and I do not think that that would be in the Crown Prosecution Service's code of practice. It is a matter of public interest and sufficiency of evidence. There used to be the 51-49 rule as to whether a criminal charge would be forthcoming but I would not like to think that that was the reason for not taking high profile cases of this nature before the court.

  137. But as far as your organisation is concerned if the evidence is there you believe that there should be a prosecution which would enhance the integrity of the Police Service about which you are concerned?
  (Mr O'Dowd) Yes.

  138. As to corrupt officers, I do not want to exaggerate the problem out of all proportion but I heard you say that there were 200 cases nationally. On 27 November the Guardian reported that in the Met 70 officers had either been charged or suspended. On 30 November it was reported that 46 officers from Middlesbrough were under investigation and had been suspended. That makes a total of 116 in three days. I challenge your assertion that there are only 200 cases throughout the 43 forces in the country.
  (Mr O'Dowd) When I did my work I asked every force about all the investigations under way at that particular time. If one adds them up they come to just over 200. I know where the major seats are, but it is probably not fair to go into them now. That was what I was told.

  139. To put the matter into perspective, what is the total number of serving police officers?
  (Mr O'Dowd) There are 126,000.

  Chairman: On that note we conclude the hearing. Thank you very much.