TUESDAY 30 MARCH 1999

THE RT HON JOYCE QUIN, MP, MR DAVID REDDAWAY and MS FIONA PATERSON  

  100.  Is the British Government's position in relation to it to continue to block it as long as Spain refuses to recognise the appropriate Gibraltar authority for the purposes of the operation of that Convention?
  (Ms Paterson)  Gibraltar is excluded from the EURODAC Convention.

  101.  It is excluded?
  (Ms Paterson)  It is excluded from EURODAC.

  102.  Why?
  (Ms Paterson)  At the time that the Government of Gibraltar were consulted about the negotiations that were going on there was blocking by Spain. Spain would agree to Gibraltar coming under the umbrella of the UK competent authority but it would not recognise the Gibraltar competent authority per se. The decision taken by the Gibraltar Government was that it would prefer to remain outside Third Pillar measures rather than be included underneath the UK competent authority.

  103.  But that no doubt was a second-best position as far as the Gibraltarian Government was concerned. Presumably they would rather be included in it and have their own competent authority recognised. Why did the British Government not support them in that position?
  (Ms Quin)  There are discussions, as I explained earlier, with the Gibraltar Government on all EU issues and occasionally a choice is made between being excluded or blocking. The Gibraltar Government particularly I think on EURODAC, as has been explained, said they would prefer to be excluded from that but it has not yet been agreed.

  104.  Rather than be under the United Kingdom Government competent authority? I did not understand Ms Paterson to say that was the preferred position of the Gibraltarian Government. Presumably they wished to be included and have their own competent authority recognised.
  (Ms Quin)  I am sure that that is right. I do not want to be evasive in answer but it is a Home Office responsibility and I have not been involved in the details of the negotiations. Again I do not want to give the Committee any incorrect information. I did say earlier that I admit there have been occasions when Gibraltar has been excluded in what for Gibraltar are less than desirable circumstances when we have judged that we wanted to make progress with a Directive as a whole. I have also said there were occasions where there were Directives like the Ramp Checks Directive which we support very strongly, which nonetheless we blocked because of Gibraltar. There are examples of Gibraltar being excluded but there are also examples where we deliberately blocked legislation because Gibraltar was not included.

  105.  A clarification please, Ms Paterson.
  (Ms Paterson)  We are using the terminology "exclusion". Gibraltar has never been excluded from any First Pillar legislation. It has been suspended.

Mr Illsley:  Just very quickly on this. On the back of John's point on the fallback position being the second best, if you take the example of the driving disqualification basically it is because Spain does not recognise the Gibraltar police and court system which would impose that disqualification. If Gibraltar were to be consulted and have the competent authority being the United Kingdom that would enshrine Spain's objection of their court system as being acceptable within the European Union legislation. Is that not the case? If you are going to lose your driving licence in Gibraltar where the Gibraltar police and courts system would impose the disqualification under the European Directive, that should extend throughout the European Union but Gibraltar is excluded. What you are saying is Gibraltar was consulted on being included within that European Directive but decided because of Spain's objections not to come within it because the competent authorities would be the United Kingdom. So if they accepted that position it would be an acceptance by Gibraltar and by the European Union of Spain's rejection of the court system in Gibraltar and the police and all the rest of it. It would tend to legitimise Spain's rejection of competent authorities in terms of the courts in Gibraltar.

Chairman:  Is that the rationale, Minister? Would you comment on it?

  106.  Just say yes. I do not want to go through it again!
  (Ms Quin)  We completely disagree with Spain's approach to this because it certainly does have the effect of refusing to recognise Gibraltar competent authorities.

  107.  But is the reasoning as Mr Illsley set out?
  (Ms Quin)  I think it is, by and large, yes.

  108.  You have explained carefully the position under the EURODAC Convention. Could you just explain what is actually the position now under the Driving Disqualification Convention? Has that come into effect or not and if it has not is it being blocked by the British Government because of the non-acceptance of the competence of the Gibraltarian authorities or is the British Government going to accept this Convention notwithstanding the failure of Spain to recognise the competent Gibraltarian authorities?
  (Ms Quin)  My understanding is that it is a Third Pillar matter and it has been accepted by the United Kingdom already.

  109.  So this is an area where the British Government has conceded the non-recognition of Gibraltarian competent authorities.
  (Ms Quin)  That is my understanding.

  110.  The rationale of that is that there are very substantial benefits to the United Kingdom in terms of not having disqualified drivers here.
  (Ms Quin)  Indeed and this is an example of what I was giving earlier when we have accepted something that we felt was in the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole.

  111.  The answers to those questions, Minister, do begin to define just how far we are prepared to go to defend Gibraltar's interests. Where Gibraltar felt one of their interests was seriously involved or jeopardised in any future European Directive will it be the policy of this Government to uphold its support of Gibraltar's inclusion in them to the point that they will make it very clear to Spanish authorities that they will not support this persistent attempt by the Spanish Government to exclude Gibraltar from future Directives?
  (Ms Quin)  Yes and, as I explained earlier, we have been prepared to block Directives when we felt it was essential for Gibraltar to be included.

  112.  That is going to be a consistent view from here on?
  (Ms Quin)  I believe it is already a consistent view. You may not agree with it as a view but it is a consistent view that we set out to seek to include Gibraltar and agree exceptionally to exclusions in areas where we feel that it is in the overwhelming interests of the United Kingdom to participate. That decision is taken after consultation with the Government of Gibraltar and only in exceptional circumstances.

  113.  Once the Spanish Government knows there are exceptions, immediately it will look for them because one of the points that came across to us was everybody said that Gibraltar issues are very high on Spain's list of policy objectives, diplomatic objectives and European Union objectives, and very low on ours. I really think we need to correct that impression. Would it not be a good idea to make a very bold and powerful statement that from here on we consider Gibraltar an integral part of the European Union, from here on future Directives that could have an adverse effect on Gibraltar if they are excluded should be included and in fact we will not support Directives without their inclusion?
  (Ms Quin)  I do not accept that it is low on our list of priorities when we are conducting any European Union business. It is actually very high on our list of priorities and indeed the greater the difficulties there have been over this issue you can imagine the more time and effort we spend in trying to make sure that Gibraltar does benefit from European Union legislation. So the premise behind your question I feel is not correct.

  114.  May I pursue a rather different position in the case of Schengen where quite rightly the United Kingdom did not wish to join Schengen and opted out of the Schengen arrangements. I can remember because I was actively involved in the debates we had on the floor of the House on these matters about the whole issue of what would happen if we decided to join parts of Schengen as and when in the future. As I understand from the brief and answers and statements we have had to date, if in fact the United Kingdom wishes to join any part of the existing Schengen arrangements, the acquis part of Schengen, unfortunately that would require unanimity and therefore the Spanish Government could block the United Kingdom's application to Schengen in certain circumstances. Is that right?
  (Ms Quin)  Certainly it is true in terms of existing measures if we are going to opt in then those have to be agreed unanimously. In terms of future measures which are proposed the decision would be taken by qualified majority voting.

  115.  Of course, as you know, Gibraltar were quite keen to be part of Schengen. The Gibraltar Government was mildly enthusiastic about aspects of Schengen, was it not?
  (Ms Quin)  I have to say it has not been pushed strongly with me by people in Gibraltar but obviously if we are opting into measures we would like to see the Gibraltarians benefit from those measures.

  116.  If we opt into any aspect of Schengen we would certainly want Gibraltar to come in on it and they, I suspect, would wish to be part of it.
  (Ms Quin)  We would discuss what we were doing with the Government of Gibraltar to get their views in advance of whatever particular measure was being proposed.

  117.  On the current track record if we try to join any part of the existing acquis in Schengen where the Spanish Government would have a veto, especially if we said these ought to apply in the case of Gibraltar as well, our chances are pretty negligible, are they not?
  (Ms Quin)  No, because the Treaty of Amsterdam does refer to countries using their best endeavours to facilitate the involvement of both the United Kingdom and Ireland in the existing Schengen acquis and if any one country was consistently to block that that would seem to be inconsistent with that commitment. I would also like to point out that the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland are in a very similar position and indeed my understanding is that there is a good amount of common ground between the areas of the Schengen acquis which are likely to be of interest to the United Kingdom and the areas that are likely to be of interest to the Republic of Ireland and, therefore, we may very well want to make a joint approach on this issue.

  118.  If we made a joint approach we would be including Gibraltar on our joint approach, would we not?
  (Ms Quin)  Gibraltar would be included, as I understand it.

  119.  You think based on current performance that the Spanish Government will use its best endeavours to allow us to join the Schengen acquis when it has the power of veto given the way it has used European initiatives——
  (Ms Quin)  The Spanish Government agreed to that form of words at Amsterdam.

Chairman:  Without any legal effect.