TUESDAY 30 MARCH 1999

THE RT HON JOYCE QUIN, MP, MR DAVID REDDAWAY and MS FIONA PATERSON  

  80.  But the Foreign and Commonwealth Office of course were wrong in the first place about their view of what the law was, were they not? That is what was said to Parliament by Ministers to me and to others, that they were not entitled to the vote in the first place. Then you get a court decision which says that they are entitled to it and then you go and invite Spain to veto it rather than say, "We are going to prosecute with vigour."
  (Ms Quin)  I certainly do not accept in any sense whatsoever that we were inviting Spain to veto such legislation. I strongly deplore such a suggestion. It is completely wrong and indeed we would expect all countries to abide by the court's ruling.

  81.  Is there in file any opinion which gives some doubt about the view as to whether or not this is subject to unanimity?
  (Ms Quin)  No, because we understand that it does require amendment to the Treaty in effect in order to give effect to the court's ruling.

  82.  A few years ago this Parliament extended the franchise to people who lived abroad. Surely a sovereign state can deem who is included in their electorate? You can extend the franchise in European elections to people living in DC and Peking and Africa, but you cannot extend the franchise for European elections to people in Gibraltar. Why is that?
  (Ms Quin)  The measure that you refer to was for national elections.

  83.  But they are enfranchised, are they not, in the European elections? I understand that those people who are entitled to vote in the national elections will be able to vote in the European elections. Am I wrong?
  (Ms Quin)  I would like to check because I do not want to give you incorrect information.

  84.  Have we thought of including the people of Gibraltar in one of the new European constituencies and, if so, is the advice that that would invalidate the election in any way?
  (Ms Quin)  We are sure that we have to go through the legal procedures which we have analysed, and that is going to take some time, particularly if it then has to be ratified by all member States, which is our legal understanding. In terms of once that process is gone through how we then incorporate the Gibraltarians into the election system is still up for discussion. The Government have not taken any decisions about that. If the present system that we brought in for the elections this June is retained in exactly the same form it would seem appropriate for the Gibraltarian electorate to be part of one of those regional constituencies.

  85.  In any European Court decision, if you found that there was a deficiency in United Kingdom legislation arising from a European Court decision, are you saying that on every occasion we then go to the European Council to get a mandate to introduce legislation remedying the deficiency in our European legislation? Surely, Minister, the normal course of events is, having now got this decision, it is open to you to introduce the appropriate legislation into the United Kingdom and implement it, and then await a challenge. Surely that is both the normal course of events and also it is fair?
  (Ms Quin)  No. It depends on the legal base of how the Act that is to be amended was done in the first place and whether it was related to the Treaty and the need therefore to amend the Treaty.

  86.  I would like to move on to the constitutional change. We have obviously had discussions on this in Gibraltar and the people of Gibraltar, a mature democracy, want to take out from the present relationship the so-called colonial features whilst still retaining perhaps for Utrecht purposes British sovereignty. Do you see any mileage in that particular development?
  (Ms Quin)  We are committed to discuss with the Government of Gibraltar their ideas when they are produced in a formal submission. We will certainly do that. It is true though, as the Overseas Territories White Paper pointed out, that Gibraltar already has a considerable degree of self-government and indeed that point was made in terms of the other Overseas Territories, that in many ways they were catching up with what was already the situation within Gibraltar.

  87.  I would like to clarify the constitutional, international treaty position. If for example a radical proposal was put forward to integrate Gibraltar into the United Kingdom, in other words to follow the example of the French and bring Gibraltar as a part of the United Kingdom with representation at the House of Commons and so on, would that be compatible with the Treaty of Utrecht? I understand it would be.
  (Ms Quin)  I am advised yes. I am thinking of the Treaty of Utrecht and I cannot think of anything automatically that would rule that out.

  88.  So an integration proposal is compatible with the Treaty of Utrecht because it does not decolonise Gibraltar in that sense.
  (Mr Reddaway)  It does not change sovereignty.

  89.  So integration is alright. In the proposals, as I understand it, that the Government of Gibraltar have submitted they have submitted some ideas and thoughts on how they would like to amend the constitution. Are any of those ideas that have been floated with you contrary to the Treaty of Utrecht or would they infringe the Treaty of Utrecht?
  (Ms Quin)  I do not think so but would you like to answer, Mr Reddaway.
  (Mr Reddaway)  The Government of Gibraltar have not yet submitted formal proposals. They may have discussed a number of ideas and I would be speculating on whether one idea or another idea was compatible with the Treaty of Utrecht—we do not yet have a wish list from the Government of Gibraltar.

  90.  I understand from our informal discussions with the Chief Minister that there was an understanding of the kind and character of the changes that the Government of Gibraltar is proposing. From that first scan or first view of them were any of them incompatible in your view with the Treaty of Utrecht?
  (Mr Reddaway)  No.

  91.  On the constitution if you had integration, and I invite you to pause for consideration of that for a moment, it conjures up different things to different people. It could mean that it becomes no different from the Scilly Isles or something like that, but surely integration would be something which is defined by the United Kingdom and therefore it would be open to you to integrate to the extent that you say these people and this territory is United Kingdom under the Treaty of Utrecht and then you could extend the franchise, thereby avoiding all the other business which we referred to a few moments ago. You could keep the devolved assembly—indeed we are having devolved assemblies elsewhere and a variety of devolved assemblies so the integration does not ipso facto mean that the status of Gibraltar would change regarding its existing EU special arrangements, which I recognise are Treaty based, or the factor of the local House of Assembly which would devolve domestic powers, which I recognise does not have to be tampered with. I do not want to be flip here but almost at the writing of a pen if the United Kingdom said it is under the Treaty of Utrecht integrated it becomes integrated by that decision of this Parliament and then you have to decide what arrangements you wish to continue which might well be the existing arrangements. Is that a sound point? Why is that flawed?
  (Ms Quin)  In the recent launch of the Overseas Territories White Paper we felt, and this is Government policy, that the idea of integration runs counter to the trend towards greater self-government in our overseas territories and we basically feel for that reason integration into the United Kingdom is not an option.

  92.  The referendum was raised with us during our visit. Clearly there was a very, very decisive referendum in the past. Do you see any case now for a further referendum to ascertain the wishes of the people of Gibraltar?
  (Ms Quin)  No, not obviously. I think we feel that we know very clearly what the wishes of the people of Gibraltar are and indeed that is very much our motivation in the way that we approach their future and indeed the way that we approach their status. So, no.

Chairman:  I would like to move on to European Union matters. Mr John Stanley and then Mr Rowlands.

  93.  Could I pursue further the issue of Gibraltar being brought in or excluded from EU legislation, including rights as well as responsibilities. In your original memorandum in paragraph 9 you say that Gibraltar has exemptions from Community policy in four areas: the Common Agricultural and Fisheries policies; then you go on to the Common Customs tariff and the free movement of goods, not of services, and the levying of VAT. I think we understand that there are very definite separate issues in relation to agriculture and fisheries because agriculture is not a conspicuous industry in Gibraltar and we understand that there is no fishing so let us focus on the other three. Minister, do you feel that the exclusion of Gibraltar from the common customs tariff, the free movement of goods and the levying of VAT is something which should still continue because clearly as long as it does continue that creates even more of a lever for the Spanish authorities to create on the border?
  (Ms Quin)  We touched on this at a somewhat earlier stage but it is my understanding that there has not been pressure from within Gibraltar to change that aspect of their status and, indeed, it arises from the status that was granted at the time of European Union accession. I am sure it would not be easy to change.

  94.  It would or would not?
  (Ms Quin)  It would not be easy to change but at the same time we have not been, certainly as far as I understand it, approached by the Government of Gibraltar to seek changes. In the earlier exchanges that we had the point was made about the arrangements that were made for Gibraltar at the time of the accession and I said it was my understanding that there was consultation with Gibraltar about that at the time. I think it was felt to be a sensible arrangement precisely in order to avoid too many onerous European Union commitments and responsibilities on a territory of small size. Even with Gibraltar's existing status they have actually had a lot of work to do in transposing European Union Directives that do affect them. I was very struck by this when I visited Gibraltar myself at the amount of time it was taking in the legislative framework to adopt European Union legislation, again some of it not directly relevant to Gibraltar. So we do have to take that aspect into account but of course the European Union is a mixture of rights and responsibilities and sometimes not having all the responsibilities in a particular area can also be, sadly, accompanied by an inability to participate in a way which actually would allow you to defend your interests.

  95.  You mentioned the question of the transposing of Directives. Would you care to confirm to the Committee that although the Gibraltar Government has been criticised heavily and in fairly abusive terms by the Spanish authorities for not bringing EU Directives into force in Gibraltar that their record now in this area is substantially better than that of the Spanish Government?
  (Ms Quin)  Certainly I believe that the Gibraltar record is good and in my statement to the House recently I made reference to the fact that the list that had been apparently circulated by Spain of failures by the Gibraltarians to implement Directives was very much out of date and there was only a very small number, I think four, that we identified that had not been implemented.

  96.  All of which are being actively pursued within the Gibraltar process.
  (Ms Quin)  They are certainly being pursued within the Gibraltar process, but further to your earlier question, in terms of exclusion from some aspects of European Union business it was felt economically that that exclusion did give Gibraltar certain competitive advantages particularly in its efforts to diversify its own economy and build itself up as a financial centre.

  97.  On the question of the exclusion of Gibraltar from specific Directives, can you clarify the procedure in this area which is followed by the British Government? We understand from what you have told us that you consult with the Gibraltar Government when there is any question of Gibraltar being excluded. Have there been any occasions during the life of this Government where the Government of Gibraltar has said it wishes to be included in a particular Directive and the present British Government has not subsequently included them in that Directive?
  (Ms Quin)  Yes, I think that is the case with some of the matters relating to the Third Pillar, judicial co-operation, and some of the justice and home affairs issues. I am also advised that another area was to do with the Airport Charges Directive and also a Directive which has not actually come into force whose adoption is currently in any case delayed which is that of the Hush Kit Regulation which again concerns aviation. But how we are guided by this is firstly, obviously, we want to try and get the maximum involvement of Gibraltar particularly when Gibraltar herself very much wants to be included in a Directive. Then another factor which we bear in mind is what the influence and effect of that Directive is likely to be on Gibraltar. While we were prepared to exclude from the Hush Kit Directive we did so in the knowledge that that Directive would have very little if any effect on Gibraltar given the size of Gibraltar airport.

  98.  I do appreciate that I have asked you to give an answer ad lib to what is obviously a technical question, but I wonder whether it would be possible for you to provide a short memorandum to the Committee just listing those Directives which the Gibraltar Government has requested it be included in and which the present Government has excluded Gibraltar from with the reasons for the British Government's decision in each case. Would that be possible?
  (Ms Quin)  Indeed.

Sir John Stanley:  Thank you. Just one last question. This is in relation to these important Conventions and there is undoubtedly an issue, certainly judging from our conversations in Gibraltar, whereby the Spanish Government appear to be taking every opportunity, or certainly are readily inclined, putting it at its most favourable, to exclude Gibraltar where there is any question of establishing some form of international recognition of a Gibraltarian competent authority. In relation to two of these Conventions, first of all in relation to the EURODAC Convention which deals with things like the compulsory finger-printing of asylum seekers and also the Driving Disqualification Convention, in both those cases we understand that the Spanish objected to the recognition of the Gibraltarian competent authorities under those Conventions. Given that Spanish objection can you tell us why the British Government conceded to the Spanish objection and did not block the two Conventions in question?

  99.  Could I follow on from that because that is what I wanted to ask in terms of competent authorities. In relation to the financial Directives and Gibraltar's attempts to establish itself as a financial centre, Spain has objected to Gibraltar being able to passport authorities through in terms of financial instruments and again, as John has pointed out, Spain appears to be lobbying other countries not to accept, for example, the authority of the financial regulator of Gibraltar and persuading other countries that they will have to accept the Foreign Office's or the Treasury's authority in relation to these matters. Basically without Gibraltar being integrated into the United Kingdom there is no way they can act within these European Directives and passport through authorities in relation to financial matters.
  (Ms Quin)  There are a few points here which I need to try to respond to. On the EURODAC Convention my understanding of this is that it has not yet been agreed.
  (Ms Paterson)  It has not yet gone through, no.