TUESDAY 30 MARCH 1999

THE RT HON JOYCE QUIN, MP, MR DAVID REDDAWAY and MS FIONA PATERSON  

  60.  And will you not agree with me—you will not say so anyway—that the Commission has a history of dilatoriness except in relation to that case involving the British Merchant Shipping Act.
  (Ms Quin)  I think I would agree with you that the Commission is often hesitant—

  61.  Or dilatory.
  (Ms Quin)  ——to take action if it feels it is a dispute between Member States, but none the less the rules are there to be upheld.

  62.  To try and summarise what we have been saying, Minister, particularly about the summit meeting, do I take it that we are going to have an inaugural summit meeting with the Spanish Government, and that it is not a specific and clear objective of ours at that summit to normalise relations at the border?
  (Ms Quin)  No, I am not saying that. All I said was that I could not give the Committee an absolute guarantee of what was going to be discussed at the summit because there is not a formal agenda—I certainly have not seen a specific agenda—for the summit. What I can say to you is that we have made it clear, I believe at Foreign Secretary as well as Prime Ministerial level, that the summit is in danger of being overshadowed by Gibraltar unless progress is made.

  63.  Is it a very clear, specific objective on our side that at this summit meeting we will attempt, without rhetoric but with all the pressures that we can apply and all the diplomatic skills that we can adopt, to normalise the border between Gibraltar and Spain?
  (Ms Quin)  That is my understanding.

  64.  Minister, can you tell us why the Government did not move immediately to respond to the Matutes proposals for a period of direct discussion on Gibraltar between Britain and Spain followed by a transfer of sovereignty of Gibraltar to Spain?
  (Ms Quin)  Because we gave a commitment that we would respond to the proposals at the next meeting of the Brussels process.

  65.  Why did you give such a commitment?
  (Ms Quin)  That has been in line with the way that these issues have been discussed since the time that the Brussels process was set up in the early 1980s.

  66.  Would you agree that by deferring now for over a year any response to the Matutes proposals this has simply served to raise expectations in the minds of at least some members of the Spanish Government and other members of the Spanish public and amongst Spanish parliamentarians that the issue of sovereignty of Gibraltar as far as the present British Government are concerned is something that could ultimately be made negotiable?
  (Ms Quin)  First, as we have said repeatedly, the commitment in the Gibraltar Constitution is very clear. Secondly, I feel there is some irony in your question since under the previous Government similar proposals were on the table for eight years before they were formally responded to.

  67.  I am well aware of that. I would be entirely happy to go into a dissertation about the rights and wrongs of the previous Government's policy, but that is not the terms of reference of this particular Committee's inquiry, which is to look at the policy of the present Government. Do you think it was a good or bad decision by the previous Government, because this is clearly the position you inherited, that the previous Government should have included the sovereignty issue alongside economic, cultural, touristic, aviation, military and environmental matters, and it should have included the key sovereignty issue amongst the others, most of which are less controversial, in the Brussels process? Do you think it was a good idea that sovereignty should have been put in with all those other issues?
  (Ms Quin)  I think it was an acceptance of reality that if you are seeking a dialogue with Spain on a wide variety of issues, the existence of the Treaty of Utrecht and the longstanding feelings of the Spaniards about the Gibraltar situation would be very likely to come into play.

  68.  Yes, but we are talking about a particular agreement for bilateral discussions under this umbrella of the Brussels process and there is a particular aspect in relation to sovereignty which is of a magnitude and significance far greater than any of the other items that we are considering. Is the present Government satisfied with the present ambit of the Brussels process? Are you ready to consider extracting sovereignty from the Brussels process and dealing with it separately?
  (Ms Quin)  No, we have not said that we would want to extract sovereignty from the Brussels process and indeed we believe that continuing dialogue with Spain over all the issues that concern us is important. Mr Heath mentioned before the importance of good relations between Britain and Spain, but I do not believe that a good bilateral relationship between Britain and Spain should be achieved to the detriment of Gibraltar.

  69.  Can I ask you to recognise this issue? The fact that the Brussels process currently allows Spanish constitutional proposals in relation to Gibraltar to lie on the table for years under this Government and under the previous Government is not conducive to good bilateral relations between Spain and Gibraltar? Would you not recognise that putting those on the table, raising this major issue on the one hand and raising false expectations amongst the Spanish on the other, is very detrimental to sensible, frank relations on a bilateral basis between the two countries?
  (Ms Quin)  I do not accept that we are raising false expectations because of the fact that we have also always at the same time reaffirmed the commitment to the Gibraltar Constitution, and therefore any discussions on sovereignty take place against that background.

  70.  So you are not prepared at the moment even to consider extracting the sovereignty issue from the Brussels process?
  (Ms Quin)  As I understand it, although I was not in Parliament when the Brussels process was started, the discussions about sovereignty were an integral part of the Brussels process, and to take those out of the Brussels process would really be tantamount to dismantling the Brussels process. Obviously, there are other ways of having dialogue with Spain; we know that, but at the same time the Government have not said that they want to dismantle the Brussels process, that we see it as a useful channel of communication despite the difficulties and despite of course too the commitments which are very solid to Gibraltar.

  71.  So the present Government's position is to adhere to the Brussels process quite regardless of the way in which the Spanish Government play the border controls lever in relation to Gibraltar?
  (Ms Quin)  No, but it is not our policy at the moment to dismantle the Brussels process.

  72.  When will the reply be made on joint sovereignty?
  (Ms Quin)  I do not have a date that I can give the Committee of when a reply will be made. There is no formal date for the next meeting.

  73.  I want to pick up democratic deficit. There is an issue which straddles both what we have had and this. Will you recommend to the Prime Minister that prior to meeting the Spanish Prime Minister he does afford the Chief Minister of Gibraltar and the Governor, either together or separately, an opportunity for meeting him? I am asking you will you be prepared to recommend to the Prime Minister. I was not trying to catch you out. I thought if I said will the Prime Minister meet them you would tell me, "I do not know. I cannot commit the Prime Minister." I am asking, are you prepared to be committed to recommend that the Prime Minister does meet these people who do represent Gibraltar?
  (Ms Quin)  Our Prime Minister?

  74.  Yes: Tony Blair, Sedgefield, meets Gibraltar, Governor and Chief Minister. It does not seem to me unreasonable, frankly, Minister.
  (Ms Quin)  First, the Prime Minister has met the Governor of Gibraltar when he was on a very recent visit to the United Kingdom. I do not know if my officials can supply me with the actual date.

  75.  But he has never met the Chief Minister other than shaking hands at a Labour Party conference, I understand.
  (Ms Quin)  He certainly has met him face to face.

  76.  Minister, I do not want to interrupt you, but surely my point is a reasonable one.
  (Ms Quin)  The point is that the channel of communications should be open between Gibraltar and us and it is open.

  77.  But surely the problem is that this comes to democratic deficit. There is no representative here at Westminster to speak for Gibraltar. I do not want to go off at a tangent; we have discussed that, but manifestly there is not. How can the people of Gibraltar express their views to Government in general, but if there is going to be a summit surely they are entitled to have access to the Prime Minister, and the conduit for that must be the Chief Minister. All I am asking is, are you prepared to recommend to the Prime Minister that he does see Mr Caruana before then?
  (Ms Quin)  First, I spoke with the Chief Minister today. I speak with the Chief Minister very regularly. I met him when he was last in London. I make comments and notes and recommendations to my colleagues, including the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister, arising out of the result of my contacts. There are very regular contacts on a day to day basis.

  78.  I understand that.
  (Ms Quin)  I have heard what you say, but I do not believe that there is a problem whereby the Chief Minister or indeed the Governor feel that their views are not being transmitted effectively to the British Government. They are being transmitted effectively, and indeed in many ways I pay tribute to the public relations and indeed the lobbying, quite understandably, that the Gibraltar Government and people in Gibraltar undertake. They are quite right to do so, and they are very effective in making sure that their interests are loudly heard in British Government circles without any doubt whatsoever.

  79.  Minister, you will recall that in the House of Commons I moved an amendment to the European Elections Bill to give the franchise to the people of Gibraltar and the Whips persuaded Parliament to defeat me on that. There has now been the court decision which says that the people of Gibraltar are entitled to the franchise in European elections. Your press release, and I hope I am doing this fairly, said words to the effect, "We hear what the court says and of course we will now endeavour to implement the court decision, but it requires unanimity." I want to put to you first of all, why on earth did you volunteer the view that it requires unanimity? Why did you not just say, "We are going to do it" and wait for any challenge to come from the Spanish?
  (Ms Quin)  I think we simply explained our understanding of the legal position and the court's judgment.