TUESDAY 30 MARCH 1999

THE RT HON JOYCE QUIN, MP, MR DAVID REDDAWAY and MS FIONA PATERSON  

  1.  Minister, may I again welcome you to our Committee, this time on the subject of Gibraltar. It is a problem I know you have taken a very close personal interest in. You will know that we visited Gibraltar earlier this month. We are very grateful indeed to the Governor and certainly to the Chief Minister and members of the Government of Gibraltar for answering so many of our questions but also helping us to raise others which we will now put to you. You know of course of the summit to be held on the 10 April. Can you tell us something about that and what areas it is proposed to cover?
  (Ms Quin)  First of all, Chairman, I would be happy to seek to respond to that, but I wonder if it would help the Committee first if I introduced my officials from the Foreign Office. On my right is David Reddaway who is Head of the Southern European Department in the Foreign Office. On my left is Fiona Paterson, who is Head of the Gibraltar section of the European Union Department in the Foreign Office. I was hoping with your permission to make a few introductory comments.

  2.  As a brief opening statement?
  (Ms Quin)  Introductory remarks rather than a formal statement.

  3.  Do that and then we will come on to the questions.
  (Ms Quin)  First, in terms of your inquiry, obviously the remit of that is the British Government's response to the current problems facing Gibraltar. The issues that, understandably, you asked to be covered in the FCO memorandum and also the issues that I know you discussed in Gibraltar do range very widely. Certainly my own experience as Minister responsible for Gibraltar is that issues are often intertwined and carry complex constitutional, political and of course sometimes European Union angles. I will try to respond to the points that you raise on all of these. I think you would expect, and I would certainly want, to emphasise the cornerstone of our policy which is the obligation to the people of Gibraltar under the 1969 Constitution and the commitment there that we will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another state against their freely and democratically expressed wishes. The Government stand firmly by that commitment. As the Committee also knows, we have a commitment to dialogue with Spain under the Brussels process and that can include the discussion of issues of sovereignty. Spain is entitled to table proposals under the Brussels process but again the wishes of the people of Gibraltar are paramount and so proposals to change sovereignty cannot prosper or succeed without the agreement of the people of Gibraltar. Recently, and this has I am sure been an important element of your inquiry so far, there has been pressure exerted by Spain at the border and elsewhere. I would like to say from the outset that our view is that such tactics which impact on the lives of ordinary citizens, not only of Gibraltar but also of Spain,———

  4.  And Britons.
  (Ms Quin)  —— and third country nationals and indeed British citizens, are not merely unacceptable, which we have said very firmly they are, but are also counter-productive. We have taken every opportunity to make this clear to Spain and also registered our protests with the European Commission. I feel that recent parliamentary and public reaction to this will have helped underline to Spain that this approach is indeed counter-productive. It is interesting to note that local communities in Spain near Gibraltar have expressed a good deal of sympathy to Gibraltar's concerns and indeed have protested themselves at times to the authorities in Madrid at the impact on their lives. Obviously we want the situation on the border to revert to a more normal basis and indeed to use the many channels available to explore concerns in a constructive way. In answer to your question, Chairman, you are right that the inaugural United Kingdom/Spain summit is due to take place on the 10 April. My understanding of this is that it will really only involve the two Prime Ministers this time. I am sure that Gibraltar will be discussed but I am also sure that other issues, such as building on the recent statement that Spain and Britain made on employment and economic issues within the European Union, will also be raised, as well as wider European Union issues of interest to both sides. As far as I know there is not a formal agenda for this process and so it can range widely but those are the kinds of issues which I understand are likely to be raised.

  5.  There will not be a formal agenda agreed by the time of the meeting?
  (Ms Quin)  I have not heard that there will be but I will have to say I do not know for sure.

  6.  At that meeting will the opportunity be taken to provide a formal response to the Matutes letter?
  (Ms Quin)  No. That would be done through the Brussels process.

  7.  So this is wholly outside, not part of, the Brussels process?
  (Ms Quin)  It is outside the Brussels process, yes.

  8.  Is it the assumption that the Spanish Prime Minister will raise the question of sovereignty?
  (Ms Quin)  We feel that it is likely that Gibraltar will be raised but I cannot give the Committee any firm guarantees, as you will understand, of what the Spanish Prime Minister might raise at the summit.

  9.  Is the Minister saying that it will not be raised by the British Prime Minister, given the treatment by Spain of Gibraltar at the moment, that it is not top of his agenda?
  (Ms Quin)  Given that the Prime Minister has already raised the question in particular of border delays on at least two occasions with Prime Minister Aznar, I am sure that it is likely to be raised, but all I am saying to the Committee is that I have not got a formal agenda, so if the Committee is asking me to give guarantees that any particular subject will be raised this time, I cannot give them those absolute guarantees.

  10.  Leaving aside an agenda, can we have an assurance, given what we saw at the frontier there of the enormous delays, that our Prime Minister will indeed raise the question of these negative actions in respect of Gibraltar?
  (Ms Quin)  I am sure he will. He already has raised them twice with the Prime Minister of Spain.

Mr Rowlands:  Can I pursue you, Minister, on this point? I hope very much the Prime Minister is going to raise Gibraltar in a very strong and forceful way. For example, what about the language used by the Spanish Foreign Minister? This was not the language of normal argument and debate in recent weeks. It seems extraordinary language, outrageous language, about connivance and international conspiracy. The language has been pouring out of the Spanish Foreign Minister's lips. Are there not going to be attempts made to get him to retract such statements at this meeting?

  11.  Or at least provide evidence.
  (Ms Quin)  Already these issues have been raised very forcefully by the Foreign Secretary in his meetings with his Spanish counterpart. I think I am right in saying that the Foreign Secretary has met with the Spanish Foreign Minister about three times in the last fortnight alone. Certainly we have made the point very strongly in all our dealings with Spain that wild and unfounded allegations are totally counter-productive.

  12.  Have we had any assurances from the Spanish Foreign Minister that the language he has used will not be repeated in future? We can have differences; there are long-standing differences, nobody denies that each will fight his corner, but the nature and character of the language used by Sr Matutes was really quite exceptionally strong by any standards. He is charging not only us but everybody with conspiracy and connivance. There was a host of quite extraordinary language. Have we got an understanding that no such language will be used in future discussions on Gibraltar by the Spanish Foreign Minister?
  (Ms Quin)  We have certainly expressed the view that both sides need to approach the issue in a responsible way. These are important serious issues and need to be treated seriously and properly and in full possession of the facts. That point has been made very strongly. I know that some of the accounts that appeared in the Spanish press were subsequently contested by the Spanish Foreign Minister so I am not sure that all the words quoted were accurate, but none the less we have made the point that language and setting the tone is tremendously important in trying to be constructive and not destructive.

  13.  But we accept that there were some absurd allegations. Have we asked for any evidence of these?
  (Ms Quin)  Yes, we certainly have done. Indeed, we believe very firmly that if allegations are made they should be substantiated; otherwise they should be withdrawn.

  14.  Minister, a fortnight ago most of the members of the Committee had the experience of observing at first hand at the border crossing between Gibraltar and Spain the Spanish Government's operation of the border controls. The Committee saw, and this was supported with documentary evidence that we were given on time delays and numbers of vehicles through the course of individual days, that the Spanish authorities are deliberately manipulating slow-down tactics at the border to produce at the present time delays of between one and two hours regardless of the number of vehicles going through. We also saw deliberate constriction of the flow of traffic to one lane only when it could perfectly well be expanded to two lanes or more, and we were told that in the summer months, July and August, people are having to sit in their cars, including mothers and children, in temperatures of up to 40Ô. And of course we were told about the serious impact that the prospect of these delays has on both Gibraltar's tourist industry and its general economic progress. Against that background I have to say I was astounded to see the terms of the reference to the border controls made in the House of Lords by your ministerial colleague, Baroness Symons, on the 17 February of this year at House of Lords Hansard column 683, when she said this: "Her Majesty's Government regret the use of border controls as a policy lever". Minister, I ask you: if Foreign Office Ministers are simply going to regard this tactic as an object of an expression of regret, what sort of message does that send to the Spanish Government about the degree of concern that the British Government has about this unacceptable use of the border control lever to apply pressure on Gibraltar?
  (Ms Quin)  With respect, Sir John, I feel that you ought to look at all the action that we have taken since the border difficulties became so acute. These difficulties and delays have been raised by us at every level, including Prime Ministerial level, and we have been very active on this issue. I must say that, while obviously I totally respect and indeed share the expressions of concern about the problems at the border, I do not accept that the British Government have been in any way inactive or feeble in their approach on this issue. I know from the work that the Foreign Secretary has done and that I have done and the effort and time that have been put into this that it is not something we are taking lightly in any way whatsoever.

  15.  Do you agree that it is satisfactory for Foreign Office Ministers to react to the situation, saying they simply "regret" the use of border controls as a policy lever?
  (Ms Quin)  I have looked at the responses that Baroness Symons has made on behalf of the Government in the House of Lords generally on these issues, and I agree with the words that she has used and the way that she has defended British interests and expressed the range of actions that the Government have taken on this question.

  16.  Minister, you said that the Government had made representations to the Commission. Can you tell the Committee whether the Commission have replied to the Government's representations?
  (Ms Quin)  They have not replied formally. They have said that they will look into the matters that we have raised.

  17.  What are the Government doing to press the Commission for a reply to what I certainly regard as an absolutely outrageous breach of the provisions of the Treaty of Rome by the Spanish authorities?
  (Ms Quin)  We will continue to raise it in order to make some progress but we will also raise it bilaterally with Spain, as we should do.

Sir John Stanley:  Can you tell the Committee whether the Government, in addition to making approaches to the Commission, which is to a degree in baulk at the moment, are also considering making a direct reference to the border control obstruction nationally, as the British Government are entitled to do, to the European Court?

  18.  That would be under the Treaty of Amsterdam, Article 227.
  (Ms Quin)  The Treaty of Amsterdam is not yet in force.

  19.  At the point when that Treaty is in force.
  (Ms Quin)  At the moment we are pursuing this with the Commission because we believe it is appropriate for the Commission to take measures and initiate action because it has the responsibility to do so. Obviously, in theory it is possible, although I think it has rarely happened—I do not know if examples are around to refer to—for one Member State to take another Member State to the European Court, but when it is a question of upholding European Union commitments and legislation we believe it is appropriate to take the first steps which we have done.