TUESDAY 23 FEBRUARY 1999

MR MARK BYFORD, MS CAROLINE THOMSON and MR ANDREW HIND

  20.  Are there any existing language services in the next three years that you will be increasing?
  (Mr Byford)  In terms of output or in terms of hours?

  21.  In terms of resources that you are putting into it and, therefore, the coverage and length of broadcasting that you are sustaining in that language.
  (Mr Byford)  One of the key dimensions of the three year plan is that as well as being a strong audio broadcaster, we shall also want to develop our presence in a complementary fashion on the Internet as well. At the heart of the three year plan is that we shall be developing an Internet presence fully interactive in 12 language services.

  22.  And the answer to Sir John's question?
  (Mr Byford)  The answer is that we shall extend within both audio and Internet. It is not just about hours in terms of physical programming on the audio, but we want to invest in new delivery mechanisms as well.

  23.  You have given no answer on the specific languages in which you will increase coverage.
  (Mr Byford)  My understanding is that in Mandarin we will increase in terms of resources, but I have no specific details of further ones in terms of hours.

  24.  On the overall expenditure on language services, what do you believe you could usefully spend in relation to where you are now? Could you spend double? Would that be a sensible delivery for you? Or treble? Or do you feel you have it about right? What is your judgment?
  (Mr Byford)  Within the financial framework that we have——

  25.  What is your judgment as to what you could usefully, beneficially spend?
  (Mr Byford)  My judgement, and the judgment of the team is that the investment that we make in the language services as a proportion of the overall budget is pretty stable. In terms of audio investment, it is reducing very slightly, but still well over 30 per cent of the budget and it is increasing in our Internet investment. So overall there is a stable investment position for investment in the language services. They will still be at the very heart of our provision. We recognise that they are core and that it is critical to invest for the future. However, we are trying to use new delivery mechanisms as well to ensure that the long-term future of those language services is strong.

  26.  I have two short questions on languages. Mr Byford, you are obviously trying to convince us that you are paying all proper due attention in your development to the language services. Is that correct?
  (Mr Byford)  Absolutely.

  27.  If that is correct, why, on page 3 of your three year plan on key developments, do you not refer to the language services at all? I understand that you are under pressure in what you are trying to say to us, but when you report this in your report it is not there.
  (Mr Byford)  We say in that paragraph that one of the three major themes of development for the World Service is expanding our presence on the Internet, and the language services are absolutely at the heart of that. We are saying that 12 language services will be fully interactive by 2002 and that all language services will be available as audio on the Internet by 2005. So, in that key development that we headline, the language services are at the heart. The second key development that we talk of in that paragraph is FM expansion. That is the ability to deliver our language services not just on shortwave, but in major conurbations of the world through FM. Language services are at the heart of that paragraph as well. It is right that a third key priority that we have identified is to reposition the English language service so that we are delivering more effectively a mixed offer of both language services and English, and that we have a more flexible offer available to tailor to different regional markets of the world.

  28.  Is it correct, as you said to Sir John, that the breakdown of English services to foreign language services is 70 to 30?
  (Mr Byford)  No, no.

  29.  What is the breakdown?
  (Mr Byford)  In terms of investment today our existing English language offer is just under 30 per cent—29.6 per cent—of our total budget. The language services are 35 per cent. By this plan, over the three year period, the English offer will be up by 0.4 per cent, to 30 per cent, and the language services will be just under 34 per cent. The situation in terms of investment and the use of our money within the financial framework is pretty stable. On the key new investment of taking our Internet finances from under 1 per cent to 4 per cent, the language services will be the biggest beneficiaries of that.

  30.  You have turned my question around to investment. I am interested in output. What is the position of output of English to output of foreign languages?
  (Mr Byford)  Through the three year plan we have only announced one closure, so the output of the language services, of well over 40 languages, continues throughout those three years.

  31.  What is the proportion of foreign language output to English output?
  (Mr Hind)  Can I help? The number of hours sent in a week over the course of the next year will be 360 hours per week in English, and around 900 hours a week in foreign languages. I hope that gives you an indication of the proportion.

  32.  That allows me to put my last question. Can you guarantee to the Committee that that proportion is not going to be reduced?
  (Mr Byford)  We have no plans within that three year plan to reduce that.

  33.  You can guarantee to the Committee that that will not be reduced?
  (Mr Byford)  We can guarantee that there is no strategy to reduce those hours, but we must always have a dynamic within the World Service plan to adjust our hours output according to need. So I could never guarantee that every single hour that we do today we shall be doing in three years' time. However, I can say to you that there is no plan to reduce those.

  34.  The key to the question is how you identify need. You analyse your audience into four memorable categories in the three year plan: cosmopolitan, aspirants, information poor and crisis listeners. Which is your key audience in those categories?
  (Mr Byford)  All of them. However, we have to recognise that the notion that all audiences are the same, wherever in the world, and that all our different areas of the world in terms of market maturity are the same, would be a mistaken one. That segmentation, which you say is memorable, is just to give an identification of clear groupings and why different audiences would come to use the World Service. Cosmopolitans would be opinion-formers and decision-makers who come to the World Service for expertise and depth of analysis; aspirants are people who would aspire to a global view and require an international agenda; the information poor are those who within their own markets do not have a reliable service of news and information, not just of an international agenda, but even relating to their own areas; and crisis listeners are those who, whether in war zones or wherever, come to the World Service for reliability and truth. The key is to be able to understand those groupings of audiences and map them against different areas of the world in terms of their broadcast maturity-developed markets, developing markets and least developed markets. We want to retain the large audience that we have today. The World Service is the world leading international radio broadcaster, because it reaches 140 million a week. We want to retain that figure in volume but to understand the different needs and groupings within that overall figure.

  35.  I understand and sympathise with that view. I feel that there is an underlying theme that somehow the cosmopolitan audience, the English speakers, the opinion-formers who do not need their own language because they are conversant with English and will tune in by choice to English, are the key grouping. There seems to be an aspect in the plan, particularly in the concentration on the Internet as a provider—and I do not argue with the concept—that identifies the cosmopolitan grouping as the ones who are the key audience.
  (Mr Byford)  If that is the impression given, I think it is misleading. Are we saying that in the most developed parts of the world where broadcasting market places are very mature, and there is a huge amount of choice both locally and internationally, that we are trying to reach every single person? Are we trying to reach every person in the United States, or Western Europe, or are we trying to target our offer and reach a key audience? In the least developed world, in central Africa, clearly to try and reach only opinion-formers and decision-makers would be wrong. Our heartland audience there is the information poor. It is for programme makers to understand that in their programme offer they should tailor their services to different audience needs. It would be quite wrong to say that in future we are only interested in opinion-formers and decision-makers. We are interested in reaching a very large audience indeed for the World Service in order to retain our leading position. But we want to be more sophisticated in our analysis of whom we reach and why.

  36.  Coming back to the language services, I accept your argument as far as the German audience is concerned. However, I am less happy with the rather amorphous cuts that are suggested in the Czech, Hungarian and Thai services, all of which are, I suppose, borderline communities in terms of your categories, as to whether they are cosmopolitan or aspirant. They are probably both. Even with the help of your memorandum that you have now submitted, I find it difficult to understand how the cost-cutting is not going to result in reduced services in what are key areas for British influence.
  (Mr Byford)  These are balances and within the overall financial framework that we have, we are trying, in the most effective manner, to make that money reach the World Service goals overall. At the beginning of the session, the Chairman highlighted the article in the "Observer" which also suggested closure of the Czech service. That is not and has not been part of the three year plan. What has been part of that plan is that, when we are assessing our language services—this, Mr Rowlands, was well before my own arrival at the World Service and the team had been doing this for years—we look at strategic importance, the information need, how markets are changing around them, investment and cost per listener value and use of other languages by the audience that we are trying to target. When you put all those together you are making judgments of the right investments that you should make. In Hungarian, we recognise that by releasing some of the money, by ending weekend feature programming, but still keeping the absolute core of news and current affairs, that enables that money, not to go away from the World Service, but to be reinvested in our priorities which are, as I said, the Internet and FM expansion. As regards Czech, based on information need, we fully recognise, in the context of enlargement and in the context even of 1999, that to provide a strong service in Czech is a very important dimension for the World Service. We want to try to get better value from the investment that we make. Any savings that we are able to realise from that is then reinvested in the development priorities. However, I would want to assure you, Mr Heath, that our commitment to a strong service in Hungarian, Czech and Thai continues.

  37.  I am glad to hear that. I remain to be convinced, but experience will show. In terms of the balance between language broadcasts and English, would it be true to say that where there is more English broadcasting there is a risk of losing some of the local news flavour, some of the local news gathering, given that war is likely to be common world news, and that less coverage is likely to be given to the municipal election results in down town Skopje?
  (Mr Byford)  There could be a potential for that.

  38.  Do you regret it?
  (Mr Byford)  I do not regret it because I do not accept that it is happening. Within the English service itself, it calls on the world's largest news gathering organisation in BBC News, with a presence all over the world, with correspondents based in more bureaux than any other organisation in the world. But that is complemented, obviously, by a very strong language presence for the World Service. You are right to say that the language dimensions give us rootage and expertise in those areas too.

  39.  Can you deny the stories which were put around earlier in the year that there will be less money spent in real terms on the Russian and Arabic services?
  (Mr Byford)  On the Arabic service, it is a repositioning of the service.