| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): The hon. Gentleman makes thoughtful speeches and is a careful man. What evidence does he have of the repression of women in Iranian society?
Mr. Heath: There is a considerable amount of evidence, not least from those women who are in exile from Iran purely because they cannot live under the regime. I know that the hon. Gentleman has great experience of the region and understands well the differences between the Islamic fundamentalist way of doing things and the western way. I appreciate that there are many ways in which we can be misled about the repression of women by overt symbolism rather than the genuine condition, but I believe that there is abundant evidence that Iranian society represses women.
We must recognise Iran's precarious geopolitical position. It sees itself as surrounded by enemies. Iraq is an ever present threat on its borders. I hope very much that the Government of Iraq will not take the present troubles in Iran as an opportunity to renew hostilities. Iran sees a Turkish-Azeri-Turkmen axis developing on its northern border and regards it as potentially hostile. It is also worried about Afghanistan.
Even taking all that into account, we must ask whether our Government's policy of constructive engagement is yielding the desired results. Are there ways in which we can encourage the small moves towards greater liberality without giving sustenance to the conservative elements in Iranian society?
I do not agree with the hon. Member for Erdington when he says that we should recall our ambassador. I think that Nicholas Browne has an important job to do and I welcome the fact that he is there. At this moment
above all, we need a British presence in Tehran to express our view about liberalisation and human rights. I do not by any means underestimate his task; he has an extremely difficult job, especially in the current circumstances.
There was a cartoon in Le Monde last week of President Khatami with one foot on a minaret and the other on a demonstrator's placard. That shows the position that he is attempting to adopt. It is a precarious and unsustainable position. The Government of Iran must decide where their future lies and whether they want to maintain a policy of suppression guided by the reactionary impulses of the mullahs or to embrace greater liberalism and democracy.
The test for our Government is whether the current policy is yielding results. That is always the test of constructive engagement. We now have annual human rights reports so that we can see the effects of our policies. The test for the Minister in replying to this debate is to show that we are getting results in Iran, and I suspect that he may find it difficult to do so.
The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Sir S. Chapman) made an important point about the position of Iran Aid, and I have had constituents write to me about that. At first sight, it is a puzzling situation. I would like it to be pure coincidence that, on 20 July, the Minister's predecessor announced a crackdown on Iranian dissident groups and three days later we had the action of the Charity Commissioners in the case of Iran Aid. Many people find it puzzling that, almost a year to the day later, there have been no replies from the Charity Commissioners about the alleged problems.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow):
I am out of tune with virtually all that has been said in this debate and I had better present my credentials for saying that. Eighteen months ago, my wife and I went to Iran on holiday. In the circumstances, I should say bluntly that I accepted not a penny from the Iranian Government. The trip was organised by the British museum travel company. The deputy head of the western asiatic department of the museum was the guide to the party, and there were other Parsee speakers.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) mentioned the position of women. My wife had to wear the chador the whole time, but the Iranians are a warm and hospitable people and we were able to speak to many women. It is an oversimplification to say that women are repressed in Iran. They are emerging quickly to positions of much responsibility, both in business and the public service, besides teaching. If comparisons are to be made with Pakistan, for example, it is clear that Iran is a very different society.
We must be careful about blanket condemnation of the mullahs. Terrible things may have happened in the past, and I do not doubt that recent events have been heart-rending. I can report to the House only my personal experience. I was involved in long conversations in the holy city of Qum with the mullahs. Some of them spoke English and we had translators for the others.
Their attitude can be summed up in what one of them said to me. He said, "We love your Virgin Mary and we respect your Jesus Christ. It is only the British Government that we do not trust." That is a result of unfortunate relations between the countries that go back to the time of Dr. Mussadeq and the whole history of relations between Iran and the west.
Some of us hoped that there had been a great improvement. Since his name has been mentioned, I pay tribute to Mr. Ansari for the work that he has done in trying to bring about better relations, which have received approval in various Foreign Office statements. The Minister will know from his briefings that the late Derek Fatchett was becoming optimistic about relations with Iran.
I do not want to say that everything that my colleagues have said is wrong, but I will put one point to them. Iran has enormous problems. It is a very young society, with more than half the population under 15. On recent events in Iran, I just reflect that it is one enormous megalopolis. Given the heat in sweltering July--it is one of hottest Julys that they have experienced--one can understand why tempers are tinder-dry. That does not justify everything that may or may not have happened, but it behoves us to show some understanding.
I agree with the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome that the last thing we should do is withdraw our excellent former charge d'affaires, now the ambassador in Tehran. I was on a private visit and did not meet our diplomatic staff, but their reputation among the non-political people we met in Iran is extremely good. The Foreign Office deserves all credit in that respect.
I say "in Iran" because we should be careful about distinguishing Tehran from the rest of Iran. Isfahan, Sharaz, Hamadan, Kashan and Tabriz are totally different from the capital city. It is a huge country and we should be careful about generalisations.
Mr. David Atkinson (Bournemouth, East):
I congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. McCabe) on initiating this debate on Iran, which is timely in view of the student revolt taking place in Tehran, which may--as he suggested--prove to be a defining moment for that country. This debate enables me to refer to a parliamentary visit I made to Iran nearly four years ago. The conclusions I reached then are, I believe, even more correct today in the light of what is taking, and has taken, place in Iran.
My conclusions, like those of the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), are different from the negative approach that the hon. Member for Hall Green and others have adopted to our response to the political situation in Iran.
Like other hon. Members, my interest in Iran has been longstanding and was motivated by the appalling atrocities perpetrated by the ayatollahs' regime which overthrew the Shah, by its promotion of Islamic fundamentalism, its support for international terrorism, its intolerance of other religions and, especially, by its failure to protect its Christian citizens. In particular, I have been appalled by the testimonies of the members of the Bahai community, including some of my constituents who have sought my help over the years in obtaining visas for their families to be reunited in this country.
Because of my involvement with the Christian human rights organisation, Christian Solidarity Worldwide--it is well known to many right hon. and hon. Members, including the right hon. Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke) and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess)--I was approached four years ago by the then Iranian charge d'affaires, Mr. Ansari, who has already been mentioned and is now the ambassador, when he told me that I should be aware that the regime was moderating its policies. I told him that I wanted an all-party group to go and see the situation for itself. He arranged for us to receive an invitation from the Majlis, the Iranian Parliament.
In the end, only two of us went. Others were warned off by the MKO, although our visit was welcomed by the Foreign Office. Our charge in Tehran accompanied us to most of the meetings, to which he would not otherwise have had access.
Our programme was as we had requested. We wanted to pursue issues including human rights, women's rights, protection of Christians, the persecution of the Bahais, the Salman Rushdie affair, support for international terrorism, and so on. We met political Ministers, religious leaders, women's leaders, representatives in the Majlis, people from the media and business, and many others.
We did not mince our words with the regime. We said that as long as the Majlis was subject to scrutiny and veto under the law of shariah, as interpreted by the council of guardians, there could be no tolerance, freedom or democracy in Iran.
We were also surprised to find that embryonic party groups had established themselves in the Majlis, and that there existed an organisation for defending victims of violence and prisoners of conscience. There was a growing role for women in all walks of life, including the legal profession and the judiciary. There was alsoa tolerance--within limits--of Armenian Orthodox Christians, who make up the largest Christian community and who are part of Iranian heritage and tradition.
I concluded that what we found had the potential and momentum for considerable progress to be made, given the right climate. Although we perceived no tolerance for the Bahais, we obtained invitations for CSW and other human rights organisations to make fact-finding visits similar to ours, and for Amnesty International to investigate internally the veracity of its reports on behalf of the MKO.
Everyone we met in connection with the issues that were of importance to us emphasised that dialogue and contact were more conducive to change than is international isolation. That is why I urge support and encouragement for those internal forces pressing for reform in Iran.
I also wish to press for a visit by the all-party British-Iranian parliamentary group, which I believe is chaired by the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Temple-Morris), to develop contacts with the Majlis. I found that there was an interest among the Majlis in establishing an Iranian-British parliamentary group. I also urge support for fact-finding visits to be undertaken by CSW and Amnesty International on their own terms, as I was promised.
Moreover, minorities such as the Armenians, Roman Catholics and the evangelical Christians need to be supported and shown that they are not forgotten. Personal contact in Iran and in Britain is the best way to achieve that. Visits for religious conferences, for example, should be classified as acceptable for the issuing of visas to Britain. However, I agree that, as long as Iran discriminates against and persecutes the Bahais and those who convert from Islam to Christianity, it cannot be fully accepted into the international community.
Since my visit four years ago, there has been some encouraging progress, most notably that achieved since the election of President Khatami, who promised to make Iran a more democratic and pleasant place. He has used his popular support cautiously to test the limits of the clergy's tolerance, although regrettable problems still arise--the mayor of Tehran was imprisoned, there was a clampdown on the Bahai institute of higher education--an organisation similar to our Open university--the leading liberal newspaper Salam was closed, and recently there have been arrests of Iranian Jews.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |