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5.12 pm
Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross): It is a very real privilege and pleasure to have the opportunity to follow the new hon. Member
for Leeds, Central (Mr. Benn) and to congratulate him, very sincerely, on a most distinguished beginning in the House. He spoke with feeling, which was shared by all hon. Members, of his predecessor and of the tragic circumstances that led to his by-election. His sentiments on that were widely shared.
The hon. Gentleman's sympathetic description of the nature of his constituency and its deprivation, and his equally engaging understanding of the sense of democratic frustration of those who live hopelessly in deprivation, bids fair for the resolution of their problem and was most apposite to today's debate. Although he did not choose to engage in the arcane issues of voting systems, none the less, he recognised in his speech how important is our democratic renewal. He also, helpfully and feelingly, introduced to the debate an element of passion that I think had been lacking.
In opening the debate, the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) made an occasional speech that will leave very little in the mind afterwards, and certainly no sense of the issue being one of great importance to the United Kingdom. It was an occasional speech that followed the events of the elections of the past month. For that reason, I very much welcomed it, and think that the official Opposition were entirely right to choose proportional representation as the subject of today's debate.
The sinuosity of the right hon. Gentleman's position on European electoral systems has been noted, and will certainly colour our view of how he approaches those issues in the future. His failure to respond to the challenge of the Home Secretary was evident and rather surprising for one who has a reputation for being straightforward. But it is clear that this debate is important, and that we should be considering the issue of electoral systems now.
I welcome the opportunity of looking rather differently upon the experiences of past elections. Once again, however, the right hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor) has intervened, to speak of his view based on 25 years' experience of this place. So we paid some attention to that. He hymned the merits of the first-past-the-post system, on the ground that it produces certain results. He has been in the House long enough to know that that is not true.
It may be beyond the memory of the right hon. Member for South Norfolk that the result of 1964 general election was far from decisive. It is certainly beyond his personal recollection that the 1951 result was far from decisive, and that a party with a minority of votes--his own, the Conservative party--formed the Government. It is certainly not beyond his recollection that the result of the general election held in the spring of 1974 was inconclusive. It seems to me that certainty of outturn is not a characteristic of the first-past-the-post system. It is also not true that it fairly reflects the opinion of the people.
Time and again, we have had general election results in which minority votes have produced a substantial majority in this place for the governing party. That is true of the current Government, as it has been true of Conservative Governments led by Mrs. Thatcher. Such an inequitable outturn is not advantageous to the good government of the country--a point that has been forcefully made, on a number of occasions, certainly to his cost, by Lord Pym, when he also represented an East Anglian constituency.
Large majorities do not necessarily lead to wise government. All too often, however, they are a haphazard consequence of the first-past-the-post system.
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough):
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Maclennan:
This is an extremely short debate, and, although I am not caught by the 10-minutes rule, I do not propose giving way frequently. However, I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Leigh:
I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. In the light of his discussions in recent years with the Home Secretary, could the right hon. Gentleman explain something that the Home Secretary said in his speech? He said that we could not have a referendum on the substance of the Jenkins report in this Parliament, as the matter is too complicated and a change could not be introduced by the next general election. However, surely the same arguments would hold true in the next Parliament. If the Government were serious about Jenkins, surely the referendum should be held in this Parliament, should it not? I did not understand the Home Secretary's comment.
Mr. Maclennan:
I have every reason to follow the Home Secretary's comments on the matter with the very closest attention, and do not recognise in what the hon. Gentleman said the words of the Home Secretary. My understanding of what the Home Secretary was saying was that--since the Jenkins report had produced a scheme for election to the House that could not be given effect, as it required boundary commission changes that could not be introduced within the time available--there was an argument for postponing the referendum to a date closer to when any change consequent on the referendum might be anticipated. It is an argument that I should like to deal with. It is an argument that certainly must have been recognised as a possibility by those of us who discussed holding a referendum. The Prime Minister said in November in the House and on other occasions that it has always been envisaged that the referendum would be held in this Parliament. That remains the position. It is a clear option and to my mind a desirable option. I hope that it is an option with which the Government will decide to proceed.
Mr. Llew Smith (Blaenau Gwent):
The right hon. Gentleman explains how undemocratic it is that a Government can be formed with a minority of the votes. Would he care to comment on the situation in Scotland after the elections to the Scottish Parliament? The Liberal party, which received a derisory vote, is now a part of government. Can he explain the democracy and fairness in all that?
Mr. Maclennan:
I shall turn to Scotland, but if I were the hon. Gentleman I would not deride 14 per cent. of the electorate. It is not derisory to be supported by so many people as have supported the Liberal Democrats both in Scotland and in other parts of the United Kingdom. It was
Sir Patrick Cormack:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Maclennan:
I said that I would not give way to any more interventions, but since it is the hon. Gentleman, this will be positively the last time.
Sir Patrick Cormack:
One man's derision is another man's boast, but does the right hon. Gentleman really think that 14 per cent. justifies a place at the Cabinet table? Is that what he is on about?
Mr. Maclennan:
I said that I would come to Scotland. First, I wish to deal with the European Parliament elections and say how auspicious I believe the choice of date for the debate is. It is auspicious because we have had the first post-election opinion poll about the merits of a proportional system of election for this House. It was published today by ITN for a programme called "Powerhouse". It shows that 70 per cent. of the British electorate favour a proportional system for election to this House. It also shows--this is important--that 68 per cent. of the British public support a proportional system of election for local government. I hope that that indicates that extrapolation of the results of the European elections as a commentary on the system of election is wholly unjustified.
Whatever the European election was about, it was most certainly not about a system of election. To be fair to him, the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire did not suggest that it was, although he suggested that it was perhaps a factor.
Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest):
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings):
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Maclennan:
No, I have said that I will not give way again. I think that that now might be taken as read.
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