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Mr. Forth: One appreciates the response of the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Ms Shipley) to the new clause proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), but we shall have to hear quite a bit more before I can regard that as a satisfactory response to the issue covered in the new clause. We are seeking a mechanism whereby we can be reassured that the measures that will be taken as a result of the Bill will be transparent and accountable, and we can have guarantees that the whole process will be proper and open.
I shall paraphrase what the hon. Lady has just said as, "Trust me or trust the Minister; it'll all be okay." I am afraid that those of us who have spent a little time in the foothills of government find that less than reassuring. I am not criticising government or Whitehall, for which I have the greatest admiration, but, as the hon. Lady has conceded, we are discussing an area of the law that carries with it enormous sensitivities and considerable risks. My hon. Friend made that point powerfully and effectively. I do not think anyone has denied that. We are faced with the difficult task of balancing the risks.
Of course we all want to take every proper and effective measure to protect children. There has never been any dispute about that; nor will there be during the Bill's passage through the House of Commons. From the outset, however--on Second Reading, and throughout the Committee stage--worries have rightly been expressed about the striking of a balance between the necessary protection of children and the need to ensure that our encroachments on the rights and liberties of individuals are kept in check.
The new clause seeks to provide reassurance in the form of a visible, reliable mechanism to ensure that what is done is proportionate and acceptable. I must confess that I have had to take issue with my hon. Friend's approach, and may not feel able to support the new clause, for reasons touched on by both the hon. Member for Stourbridge and my hon. Friend himself.
The new clause makes provision only for a one-off report. That strikes me as odd, given that we are dealing with a new situation, and especially given the sensitivities involved. We want to ensure that there is a proper reporting mechanism, but I do not think that once is enough. Surely, as the hon. Lady implied, it is not unreasonable to expect an annual report if we are to gain the reassurance that we all seek.
Mr. Hammond:
I understand what my right hon. Friend is saying, but perhaps we have different aims. My right hon. Friend wants a mechanism providing for on-going monitoring, while I am more concerned with establishing whether my expectations about the number of people who might be caught by the provision, and the length of time for which they might wait for a determination, are broadly correct. I consider that it will be enough to examine what has happened during the first year of the Bill's operation; my right hon. Friend is suggesting a different type of on-going scrutiny, which would serve a different purpose.
Mr. Forth:
I half accept what my hon. Friend has said, and I understand why he has said it; but can we assume
I shall return shortly to the question of what response would be expected to the information provided for in the new clause. First, however, let me draw attention to a lacuna that--as my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) hinted in his intervention--has already been spotted. I share the blame, if blame is to be apportioned, for not spotting it earlier and seeking to correct it. I see no requirement in the Bill for the tribunal to report on what it is doing. Perhaps the Minister will be able to reassure us; my memory of the overall provision for tribunals has faded somewhat, and, uncharacteristically, even my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border could not put his finger on it. However, my right hon. Friend and I both fear that, unless there is to be an overall provision in the guidance for tribunals compelling them to issue regular public reports on what they have been doing, something is missing from both the Bill and, regrettably, the new clause.
We all want--at least, I hope that we all want--to be certain that, whatever happens in the early stages of the Bill's implementation, we know everything about it. We want to know that there will be a mechanism providing for early review, and for any necessary correction to be made.
That leads us to an interesting question. How will we judge success, in terms of the operation of both the Bill and the tribunal? Will it mean a large number of cases, or a very small number? As my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge said, the new clause would provide the beginnings of a means of measuring success, in that it requires the number of people placed on the list, provisionally placed on the list and so on to be enumerated; but do we want or expect to see a large or a small number of people on the list? That is germane to the effectiveness of both the Bill and the tribunal.
Mr. Hammond:
One of our most important tasks will be to compare the number of people on the list to be kept under the Bill with the number of those on the non-statutory list currently maintained by the Department of Health.
Mr. Forth:
That is a legitimate approach, but it is only one approach. What bothers me is this: do we want to encourage putting a large number of people through this process, or to discourage it? If we want to encourage it, anxieties about the implications for civil liberties must increase in proportion. I concede that the new clause provides at least the basis for a judgment to be made.
Mr. Hammond:
That point will be addressed primarily by the guidance that the Government will issue. As is often the case, it is difficult for us to judge the effect of the legislation from what is in the Bill; the guts of that legislation will be contained in guidance, regulations or secondary legislation.
Mr. Forth:
That is an important point, of which those of us who have been responsible for the passage of
Given that so much will be dealt with in the Bill--which will by then be statute--are we able to rely on a promise that a variation in the details of guidance or regulations will be a sufficient response should information emerge, one way or the other, on the operation of the new clause's provisions? Such questions touch on the necessary balance between an Act's provisions, regulations and guidance.
Funnily enough--although hon. Members often argue, for our own sense of security, for as much as possible to be included in a Bill--in this case, it might be more reassuring if more of the detail were dealt with in regulations or guidance, precisely so that changes might be made in response to information that would be elicited by the new clause. Although I do not often make that type of argument, I think that it is right to do so in this case.
Mr. Maclean:
I am sorry to interrupt my right hon. Friend's train of thought, but there is another little problem to feed into the conundrum. If new clause 1 had been selected, my right hon. Friend would undoubtedly have made a passionate plea for legal aid provision to be extended. However, the Government are reviewing legal aid, and--probably after the Bill is passed--people covered by the Bill's provisions may not qualify for legal aid. Although legal aid may not be granted when those people initially appear before the tribunal, they may receive it later. Will there not be a different balance and mix of provision, and will not time limits be lengthened?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
Order. The right hon. Gentleman may have assisted the House by interrupting the train of thought of the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), as we were getting into matters that go rather wider--indeed, to the philosophical nature of legislation generally--than
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