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8.20 pm
Mrs. Rosemary McKenna (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth): Discussions about welfare reform often generate more heat than light, but tonight's debate has been reasonable and not in that vein. When we support welfare reform, we are sometimes accused of attacking the most vulnerable members of society and those in deepest poverty. Such claims are rich coming from Conservative
Members who forced more people into poverty by putting them on benefit in order to massage the unemployment figures under the previous Government.
It is important to put my remarks in context. When I was a small child, my father became ill and was hospitalised for two years. He spent a further two years recovering at home and then secured a succession of poorly paid jobs. I know what it is like to live in poverty: to live from day to day. At the time, my mother was trying to raise three children and maintain some sort of dignity. I know what it is like to live on benefit. Believe me, our lives began to change only when my father began working again. He might have had poorly paid jobs, but at least he was in the labour market. That is the important principle behind welfare reform that the Government are trying to achieve.
Those whom we are trying to help back to work will at least receive a minimum wage. We did not have that. It is not a great wage but, together with access to lifelong learning and further education, it is a first step towards prosperity. It is wrong to describe any discussion about welfare reform as an attack on the poor. The current system of benefits has not released one person from poverty. It is now clear to everyone that, for those who can work, employment is the only route out of poverty.
Our country is not full of workshy individuals and families: tens of thousands of people are denied access to work and do not receive the adequate financial support that would allow them a decent quality of life and some dignity. Thousands of long-term sick and disabled people who want to return to work are denied the support and assistance that they need in order to take that vital step and seek employment. Under the current system, thousands of people with disabilities who will never be able to work do not receive adequate financial support and cannot enjoy a decent quality of life.
It is quite wrong to portray this Bill as a crackdown or a squeeze on the poorer members of society. In fact, it is quite the reverse: it seeks to ensure that those in real need are supported at a proper level. We must all accept that the present benefit system does not work. The gap between rich and poor is wider now than at any other time this century. One in three children lives in poverty--we should be ashamed of that statistic. In the main, people's health and education achievements continue to reflect the social class from which they come.
Tinkering with the present system will not impact to any degree on the social or economic inequalities in Britain today. That is why we should welcome the Bill and embrace the opportunity in Committee to discuss the real issues and the meat of the legislation. The present system traps people in poverty. It was not designed to do that, which is why the new deal has been welcomed by young people, the long-term unemployed, lone parents and the disabled. The Bill is based on the principle of work for those who can work and security for those who cannot.
I am concerned about the plight of those people who have long-term debilitating illnesses, such as ME. They struggled for years to have ME recognised: first, as an illness and, secondly, for benefit purposes. Anyone who knows ME sufferers will be aware of the appalling effect that the condition has on their lives and on their families. Access to incapacity benefit made the lives of ME sufferers less stressful, which is very important to the recovery process.
Many people, particularly the young, recover from illness. However, in the past they received no assistance in returning to work. They had to find themselves jobs and were removed from the benefit system as soon as they secured employment. Because it was a contributory scheme based on previous earnings, those who bravely tried to return to work but failed when their health deteriorated lost their benefit at a higher level. As a result, people had no incentive to try to return to work and became trapped on benefit. That is extremely distressing for people suffering from illnesses--especially when the removal of stress contributes to recovery. The system that was designed to help is delaying the recovery process.
People with long-term illnesses should derive some comfort from the measures in the Bill. As well as determining entitlement to benefit, the reform of the all-work test will provide information about people's capabilities and may be used to plan a return to work--if people are able to do so. The single gateway interview will ensure that those who claim incapacity benefit receive help in planning a route back to work or receive the benefits to which they are entitled. The creation of a single point of access, involving the Employment Service, Benefits Agency, local authorities and the Child Support Agency, should simplify the whole process and make it much less threatening.
Since the general election, the change of culture in the Employment Service has been remarkable. With the creation of the new deal, clients view staff much more positively--they are seen as providing assistance. Anyone can see that the creation of personal advisers has been a tremendous success. Ordinary people know that they are now receiving the kind of professional help that the better-off could always procure and that they are involved in making decisions about their own lives. The difference is tangible when one walks through the door of my local employment office.
We cannot ask agency employees to change without proper training. Prompted by past problems, the trade unions fought for and achieved the installation of security barriers between staff and their clients. That state of affairs was always unacceptable, but the real antagonism between staff and clients proved that the system was not working. The Government must give an undertaking that all staff will feel comfortable with the new approach and that people will have a different experience. That will involve a real commitment to training and a change in attitude that is crucial to the success of the legislation.
One of the lessons that my parents learned during my father's period of unemployment was that part of the key to future success was access to education--lifelong learning. That is how one gets out of unemployment, and the Government's commitment to that is crucial.
With the changes that the Government have already introduced, the millions of pounds being spent, the multi-agency approach to tackle our most deprived areas, the minimum wage, the working families tax credit, nursery places, help with child care, education and maintenance allowances for 16 to 18-year-olds from poor families and the changes being introduced by the Bill, we shall begin to attack the endemic poverty that exists in far too many areas in Britain. That is when we offer real equality of opportunity to the people whom we are elected to represent.
8.29 pm
Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury):
The hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth (Mrs. McKenna) will forgive me for the fact that time prevents me from following up her speech, but she seems to have been the only Back Bencher so far to see any merit in the Bill.
The balance of the debate on both sides of the House has been clear. The measure conjures up a curious picture of a stormy sea and sky, with the good ship SS Britain heading for the rocks. The crew rebel, sack the captain and officers and replace them. The new captain appoints a sturdy helmsman from Birkenhead who sets a new course, then sacks him and replaces him with the deputy purser, who puts the ship back on the original course and piles on more coal.
The central weakness of our benefits system is means-testing, which provides the strongest possible disincentive to save and, in some cases, to work. The worst features of the system were introduced in 1988 and I make no bones about that--I was new to the House then and I have since written a number of papers arguing that. As several hon. Members on both sides of the House have implied, the measure goes further down exactly the same route and it will result in a huge increase in costs and extend dependency, particularly but not exclusively among elderly people.
Mr. Andy King (Rugby and Kenilworth):
Rubbish.
Mr. Brazier:
The hon. Gentleman says, "Rubbish", but let us consider pensions. In 1988, pension provision in this country was on course and we had by far thehighest level of occupational pensions in Europe--an achievement of which to be proud. Year by year, the proportion was rising and indeed, in 1988, already more than half the number half of pensioners had an occupational pension. At the same time, the proportion of pensioners reliant on income support progressively dropped until, in 1988, it was less than 14 per cent.
The changes made in 1988, which in many respects are copied and amplified by the pension provisions in the Bill, introduced a income support supplement for pensioners, paid on a means-tested basis. We also changed the capital rule on housing benefit. The justification given by Ministers then was exactly the same as that givenby Ministers today: that we were focusing on need.
What happened? The effect on pensioners was electric. On the one hand, the proportion of people with occupational pensions continued to rise. Had those changes not taken place, one would have expected the proportion of pensioners reliant on means-tested benefit to decline further over the next four or five years from 14 per cent. to 11 or 12 per cent. Far from it. The proportion increased from 14 to 16 per cent.--a rise of one seventh.
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