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Mr. Deputy Speaker: I appreciate that there are some deeply considered views to be put forward in the debate, but I suggest that a little urgency might now be injected into it. A large number of hon. Members still want to contribute, and at the present rate not all of them will succeed in catching my eye. I call Mr. Edward Leigh; I am sorry, Mr. Andrew Robathan. It was not my intention to give the hon. Member for Gainsborough double rations.
7.42 pm
Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby): I shall be a great deal briefer than the hon. Member for South Ribble(Mr. Borrow). As he showed, the Bill is a triumph--a triumph for the persistence of single-issue pressure groups and political correctness. There is no huge demand in the country for a change. We have heard about opinion polls, but I do not want to dwell on them. There are deeply held beliefs on both sides. The only letters and telephone calls that I have received have been from those who oppose the Bill, but I know that I have constituents who would like it to pass.
I have received several briefings, some of which, from both sides, I have thought erroneous. The best bit of rubbish that I have had arrived this morning from the National AIDS Trust, which said:
I also received a letter this morning from Lady Hayman thanking me for responding to her appeal to give blood, which I did a couple of weeks ago in Leicester. There was a shortage of blood and she wanted a higher profile for the National Blood Service. To those who say that this is not a health issue, I must point out that there is no equality in giving blood. The politically incorrect advice from the National Blood Service says:
I understand the wish of the hon. Member for South Ribble to stress the case for equality. Stonewall's submission opens with the words:
We are debating what protection the law should give to children, and what children should be allowed to do. That is not just my opinion, but that of United Kingdom law. The Children Act 1989 says:
Leaving aside the moral opinion of people like me, and even the teachings of Christianity and other religions, the Government seem to be ignoring even their own focus groups. Opinion polls suggest that between three fifths and three quarters of people in this country do not want the age of consent to be reduced. It would be easy to condemn such a proportion of the population as homophobes, but on this occasion the ordinary British public show a great deal of common sense.
Mr. Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South):
The hon. Gentleman is attempting to make a case based on public opinion. He said earlier that there was no huge public demand for the reform--an assertion which in any case I dispute. Would he say that the lack of a huge public demand for the abolition of bear baiting or public hanging meant that those measures should not have been enacted? The hon. Gentleman is in error when he talks about a vast tide of public opinion in this country against the reform. A Gallup poll in July last year for The Daily Telegraph--The Daily Telegraph, note--found that 42 per cent. believed that homosexual acts were morally equivalent rather than morally inferior to heterosexual acts. Only 39 per cent. disagreed. Whatever else the Great British public think about the issue, they are not giving carte blanche to the hon. Gentleman and his argument.
Mr. Robathan:
The hon. Gentleman, in his rather long intervention, tries to put words into my mouth. I did not say that there was a great groundswell of opinion against the measure; when asked, however, people almost invariably say that they do not think that the law should be changed. People to whom I have talked and those who respond to opinion polls do not accept that the two acts are equivalent.
The general view, and mine--the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Marsden) may agree with me on this--is that what people get up to in the privacy of their own bedroom is largely their own affair. However, the
Great British public do not wish to see boys threatened by predatory older men. The hon. Member for South Ribble did not address that. I should be appalled if, when my son is 16, a 40-year-old man seduced him. Surely that is a widely held view.
It is not homophobic to oppose the Bill. "Homophobe" must be one of the most contrived words to have entered our language recently. Common sense says that there is a difference between homosexual and heterosexual relationships. Society and the law should point that out. By reducing the age of consent, Parliament will be telling young people that there is no difference, which is contrary to logic and biology. That may encourage more of the confused young men, to whom the hon. Member for South Ribble, who is no longer in his place, referred, into homosexual relationships. We will be saying that society is ambivalent on the issue. We should be encouraging all young people to show more self-restraint.
When I was a child, I used to put money into a box shaped like a house, provided by Barnardos. The purpose was to encourage people such as me, from a relatively privileged background, to help those from less privileged backgrounds. Sadly, Barnardos seems to have abrogated its responsibilities to give guidance to young people--if the quotation that I have from a spokesperson is correct. It says:
Last year's debate, in which the amendment of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) was defeated, revealed the true wishes of the House. I am not sure whether there was a payroll vote, but I note that the Home Secretary voted against the amendment.
The Government have been let off the hook by the House of Lords, in that they are now introducing an extremely weak exemption clause for teachers and others. Most people outside this House would be appalled at the idea of any teacher having an affair with a child in his care. However, only last year, this House refused to provide such protection for children. I am delighted to say that even the politically correct in the Government baulked slightly at that.
Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South):
I propose not to be long. I hope to set an example that others will follow, rather than follow the example that I have been set. The Bill is very simple. Whether homosexuality is good or bad is not the issue; it is not in the Bill. It is decided by Parliament, and by the European courts. What the age of consent should be is not the issue; it is decided by others.
On 1 January 2000, we become a party to the European convention on human rights. In the case of Sutherland and Morris, the courts have said that a deal must be done, so the one way to stop our law being condemned is to pass the relevant section of the Bill. There is nothing we can do about that. We waste time arguing about it.
We should be looking at a far more important issue--the protection of the handicapped, the mentally disabled and the youngsters who are in a position where they trust the older persons around them. I was the main supporter of the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) last time we debated this issue, and I spoke in the debate. I said then that what mattered was the protection of those in disadvantaged positions who had to take and abide by the rules, guidance, orders and instructions of their elders and betters: the teacher, the scoutmaster, the priest, the vicar, the doctor--I could go on ad nauseam.
One does not have to be very old to realise that, in the children's homes of this country, exploitation of the young has been rampant over the years. We have never had the guts to admit it. In Cheshire, an inquiry has been going on for ages. Kincora in Northern Ireland is another example. Various public school masters who exploited their children have been prosecuted. There have been examples of exploitation up and down the land--in Leicester, Newcastle and all over the place.
We are talking not just about youngsters of 10, 11, 12 or 13, but often of 15, 16 and 17. Those of us who tabled the amendment last year sought to protect those youngsters. In an intervention on the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), I indicated that the Bill proposed a maximum two-year sentence. What are we talking about in terms of the abuse of a child? Anal sex? Rape? Indecent assault? We are talking about all the things that we should never allow a child to suffer at any age. We must never allow a child in a position of dependency to be exploited.
As a practising lawyer, I have dealt with hundreds of such cases over the years. Time and time again we read of the persuasiveness of those involved. "I will just help you here. Would you like a treat of this sort or that?" It is slimy, miserable and horrible, and it ruins the lives of children not just for a year or two, but for ever.
Those of us who supported the amendment to the Crime and Disorder Bill thought that we would achieve something. We cannot beat the law, or the European courts. We cannot stop the reality of equality, but let us protect the vulnerable. In a case of which I am aware--I shall not name names, or say where it is--mentally handicapped children of 16 and 17 were treated to the pictures or a visit to the shopping market. What was the payment? Sex. Can we tolerate that? No.
The sentence proposed by the Bill in terms of 16 and 17-year-olds will be two years. That means one year, because of time off for good behaviour. The offender will no sooner be tried than he will be out. Is that a deterrent to the paedophile or the slimeball? Not on your life.
"equalising the age of consent for homosexual sex will have significant health promotion benefits for young gay men . . . In this sense, an equal age of consent recognises young people's basic right to health."
I understand that there are strongly held principles involved, but I have to disagree with that.
"You should never give blood if you are a man who has had sex with another man".
No one can say that male homosexual intercourse is judged to be equivalent in health terms.
"Our case is the case for equality."
That is the core of the argument for changing the law. However, there is no equality between homosexual and heterosexual intercourse. Neither biologically nor physically can the acts be equated. I would add that there is no moral equivalence, but apparently in these morally ambivalent times legislators are not allowed to suggest that an act might be right or wrong.
"A child is a boy or girl under the age of 18."
In international law, the United Nations convention on the rights of the child says that
"A child means every human being below the age of 18 years."
It is perfectly reasonable to say children should be allowed to do this or that without being protected, but we should know exactly what we are debating.
"We find ourselves in the ludicrous situation of handing out condoms to girls who are 16, to heterosexual boys who are 16, but not to gay 16-year-olds".
It would be better if Barnados encouraged and taught abstinence and self-control in all 16-year-olds in their care. I shall not be giving my son one of those little Barnardos boxes.
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