Welsh Grand Committee
Tuesday 5 May 1998
(Carmarthen)
[Mr Barry Jones in the Chair]
11.2 am
The Chairman: I have to inform honourable Members
that due to a technical fault with the electricity supply, the
translation service is temporarily unavailable. It also
means that Hansard will have difficulty in providing a
full record in the normal way.
Before I call the first question, I am sure all members
of the Committee would wish me to express our gratitude
to Carmarthenshire county council for agreeing to host
this first meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee in south
Wales outside Cardiff.
I would particularly like to thank the chief executive of
the council and his staff, as well as the Welsh Office, for
the thorough arrangements they have made for today's
meeting. I propose to suspend the Committee informally
for the lunch at about 1 o'clock for a period of 45 minutes.
If the Committee will bear with me, I now have a brief
statement to make concerning the use of the Welsh
language during these proceedings. This is the second
meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee at which
simultaneous interpretation facilities will be available for
the translation into English of speeches made in Welsh,
but not from English into Welsh.
The House has approved new arrangements for the use
of Welsh in the Committee. Members are now free to
move from one language to another as they choose,
provided that Members proposing to speak in Welsh give
the Chairman notice in English of their intention to do so,
at the latest when called to speak or to put a question; and
that points of order are raised only in English. I know that
colleagues will also bear in mind the normal courtesies
when intervening in speeches.
We come now to questions to the Secretary of State for
Wales. As the Standing Order allows only 30 minutes for
this Business, I appeal to right honourable and honourable
Members for brief supplementary questions and brief
replies.
Oral Answers to Questions
The Secretary of State for Wales was asked
Agriculture (Appeals)
1. Ms Jackie Lawrence (Preseli Pembrokeshire): If he
will establish an independent appeals system to deal with
disputes arising out of decisions made by the Welsh
Office Agriculture Department.[39593]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales (Mr. Win Griffiths): The Welsh Office does not
intend to set up an independent appeals mechanism at this
stage, but in conjunction with the other UK Agriculture
Departments is keeping under consideration the need to
establish a system.
Ms Lawrence: Does my hon. Friend agree that in
Britain and elsewhere it is necessary to be fair and to be
seen to be fair? Does he recognise the considerable
concern among farmers about the changes in integrated
administration and control systems forms this year, and
the fact that in the past relatively small errors were
penalised too harshly? With that in mind, does he accept
that farmers feel that the current system means that the
Welsh agriculture department acts as judge and jury? Will
he look again at the possibility of ensuring a fair means
of settling such disputes?
Mr. Griffiths: I am aware of the difficulties faced by
farmers when mistakes are made on their applications
under the various subsidy regimes. Internally, we must
make judgments on whether mistakes can be accepted.
More often than not, they cannot be accepted. if, however,
any farmer felt aggrieved about the way in which we had
handled an application, or if we had made a mistake, he
would have recourse to the ombudsman, the
Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration. Beyond
that, there is judicial review, although that may be going
a little too far. Such discretion is necessary because if the
Court of Auditors were to find people operating the IACS
scheme or related schemes wrongly, we as a country could
be penalised and would have to pay large amounts. That
is why we are being very careful about such applications.
The Chairman: Order. I remind hon. Members that
there is no translation system at the moment. I know that
their questions and answers will therefore be brief.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon): I regret that that is
the case, Mr. Jones.
Does the Minister agree that one of the most important
means of overcoming mistakes is a mechanism for full
discussion? In that context, does he accept that staff at the
Welsh Office agriculture department play a vital role in
each of the local offices serving the agriculture
communities within their catchment areas? As changes in
the structure of grants to farmers are being considered,
will he ensure that the number of staff in the local offices
is maintained so that farmers have every opportunity to
discuss their difficulties in person within reasonable
distance of their homes?
Mr. Griffiths: We are considering how we can speed
up payments to farmers who, I am sure, will appreciate
anything that we can do to help. I assure the right hon.
Gentleman that if any changes are made, the ability of
farmers to communicate with Welsh Office officials will
be taken into account.
Local Government (Modernisation)
2. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones (Ynys Môn): What
representations he has received on the modernisation of
local government in Wales.[39594]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales (Mr. Win Griffiths): I have recently published a
series of seven consultation papers setting out proposals
for modernising local government in Wales, and I expect
to receive representations from local government and
others in response to this.
Mr. Jones: Does the minister agree that recent events
in a number of local authorities in Wales confirm the need
to look at the structure of local government in Wales?
I welcome the consultation papers on the future of local
government that were published recently, but does he
share my view that we will have to consider radical
changes? For example, should we be thinking about
annual elections for part of a council, about whether
elections should be by proportional representation,
whether there should be more management-style decision
making and whether councillors should be more
accountable? That would strengthen accountability as
would, in a number of selected cases, directly elected
mayors. When does the Minister expect to make an
announcement?
Mr. Griffiths: The consultation will continue for a few
months, after which I hope we will be in a position to
issue a White Paper perhaps in the late summer or early
autumn. We shall look to legislate as quickly as possible.
We are looking at all options to ensure that local
government is seen to be an effective part of the
community, delivering those services.
National Health Service (Nurses)
3. Ms Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North): What plans he
has to address the shortage of nurses in Wales.[39596]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales (Mr. Win Griffiths): A national recruitment drive
has been launched to attract more people into nursing and
to bring registered nurses back into the service. Each trust
is encouraged to implement flexible working patterns and
family friendly policies for its staff.
The annual exercise which examines nursing workforce
numbers in Wales will report in June and will provide us
with further information on shortage problems.
Ms Morgan: Does my hon. Friend think it bizarre that
one of the major hospitals that serves the Cardiff area is
planning a major recruitment drive in the far east because
it is unable to recruit nurses locally? This follows the
previous Government's disastrous miscalculation of the
number of nurses to be trained on Project 2000.
Mr. Griffiths: I certainly agree that there have been
problems in forecasting the demand for nurses. It is hoped
that, in conjunction with the national health service, the
Royal College of Nursing, Unison and the other unions
involved, we shall make better forecasts in the future. We
hope that it will not be necessary for trusts in Wales to
look to the far east to supplement their staff, but trusts
must look at their pay and conditions of service if they
are to deal with some of these problems.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley): Does the Minister
agree with the Royal College of Nursing that pay is the
problem in attracting more people to the nursing
profession? When Labour was in opposition, it gave
everyone the impression that it would give nurses
one-stage payments instead of two-stage payments.
Nurses feel continually let down by the Government.
Would not it be far better if the Welsh Office, instead of
fiddling with designs for the Welsh flag and promoting
Catatonia and the Manic Street Preachers, which they can
do very well on their own, did all it could to ensure that
morale within the national health service is raised and that
staff received the better treatment that they were promised
in the general election?
Mr. Griffiths: In the last pay award, we gave a pay
increase higher than anything that the previous
Government gave nurses in the previous pay round. I am
afraid to say that, because of election commitments, we
were not able to introduce that in one go. I assure the hon.
Gentleman that much time is invested in the Welsh Office
in trying to ensure that nursing is an attractive career. We
will take steps when the June work force figures are
available to encourage people into nursing and to
encourage those who have dropped out to return.
Welsh Assembly (Functions)
4. Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney):
If he will make a further statement on the transfer of
functions to the Welsh Assembly, with particular
reference to agriculture.[39597]
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ron Davies):
I have undertaken to produce a further draft of the transfer
order before Committee stage of the Government of
Wales Bill in the House of Lords. I will place a copy in
the Library of the House.
The agriculture industry is economically and socially
important across Wales. It is right that functions with
respect to agriculture should as far as possible, be subject
to the democratic scrutiny and accountability of the
assembly, by making the assembly responsible for those
policies.
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