Welsh Grand Committee
Tuesday 18 November 1997
[Mr Barry Jones in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
Petrol Leakage
10.30 am
1. Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many incidents of petrol leakage from underground storage tanks at garages there have been in Wales in the past two years; and if he will make a statement about the situation. [14784]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): In the past two years, the Environment Agency recorded six incidents of water pollution from underground storage tanks at petrol filling stations in Wales, including one at Bontddu in the hon. Gentleman's constituency which, unfortunately, necessitated the evacuation of a local school and some homes.
Mr. Llwyd: I thank the Minister for that reply. My major worry concerns the Bontddu incident, in which several agencies were involved. The Environment Agency, the Health and Safety Executive and the local council were contacted, but the Health and Safety Executive declined to act. It said that there was no perceived danger. An explosion then occurred, after which the HSE decided to become involved. A far better, more co-ordinated approach should have been taken. I regret to say that such incidents will become common occurrences over the next months and years. Will the Minister have some input into the current discussions on the draft legislation for the sale of petrol?
Mr. Hain: I sympathise a great deal with the hon. Gentleman's view, especially in respect of the very serious incident in his constituency. I remind the Committee that on 1 September 1997, the Health and Safety Commission published proposals for a new set of regulations to deal with such problems. As the hon. Gentleman said, the situation is messy because regulations date back to 1928. They need complete modernisation and, undoubtedly, his point of view will be important in achieveing that objective.
Health Trust Funding
12. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the officials of health trusts in Wales to discuss their funding for the current financial year. [14785].
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Win Griffiths): I have met a number of trust chairmen. Welsh Office officials regularly meet with trusts, both individually and collectively, to discuss their financial positions. Trusts are not funded by the Welsh Office--they receive their income from contracting with their main commissioners.
Mr. Jones: The Minister will be aware of reports that at least half of the Welsh trusts will probably overshoot their budgets by the end of the financial year. He will also know that they have currently been charged by his officials with examining reconfiguration of the trusts. Does he agree that the first priority is to make sure that the trusts are properly funded? The management time involved in reconfiguration is not a good use of their money at the current time. Should not that issue be examined by the Welsh Assembly?
Mr. Griffiths: I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman. We are committed to reducing bureaucratic costs in the health service in Wales, and one way of doing so would be by reconfiguring the trusts. They did not grow up in the context of a logical means of delivering services throughout Wales. They were local responses to the policy of local quangos pursued by the previous Government.
We want to ensure that the trusts are reconfigured so that they deliver the best services to people locally. We admit that, in the short term, that will take time, but the overall benefit to the health service in Wales will be substantial. Between £5 million and £10 million will be saved in the operation of trusts and that will go directly into patient care.
Mr. Rowlands: I remind my hon. Friend that the trusts are at least local trusts. Is he aware that an idea has been mooted in the Bro Taff area that the number of trusts should be reduced to two--creating large amorphous and even less accountable trusts and quangos? Why was the whole process initiated and being run by the health authorities? Why does not the Minister take charge of any reorganisation so that there is a democratic imput, rather than an input only by health authorities?
A health authority is a large administrative organisation with costs of £35 million, and with almost £2 million being paid in remuneration to the board of directors. Surely we should be considering a more democratic input rather than transferring responsibility to health authorities.
Mr. Griffiths: I and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales are in charge of the trust reconfiguration exercise. The health authorities are acting under a remit from the Welsh Office to develop more consistent proposals for trusts in Wales. As for Bro Taff, I have no details of the two-trust option referred to by my hon. Friend, but I understand that several options are being considered. I assure him that we want trusts to operate in such a way that services will be better delivered to people in Merthyr and in other parts of Wales. We also want to ensure a local accountable element in the operation of those trusts.
NHS Internal Market
3. Mr. Alan W. Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his Department's time scale for removing the internal market in the NHS. [14786]
Mr. Win Griffiths: The Welsh Office will be publishing a White Paper before the end of the year setting out our proposals for replacing the NHS internal market in Wales and the timetable to be followed.
Mr. Williams: My hon. Friend will know that practical proposals are now being considered to get rid of the internal market in England, under which 90 per cent. of the money would go through family doctors and general practice commissioning groups. Will my hon. Friend assure us that if those ideas are supported by the British Medical Association and adopted in England, Wales, too, will follow that practical agenda?
Mr. Griffiths: Last week, I announced three locality commission pilot projects in Wales--one in Blaenau Gwent, another in the Taff Ely area and one in the Teifi valley. Those three different parts of Wales represent a totally balanced community--a mixture of valleys, the south Wales suburb-type belt and the rural community of the Teifi Valley. We want to ensure a strong system of locality commissioning, with doctors, other providers of professional care within the health service and local government social services being involved in providing total health care for the people of those communities. It is intended that there will be a strong local budget for each of those groups. We want to see how that progresses before finally deciding what will be the best option for Wales.
Mr. Wigley: In his answer to the previous question, and now in answer to this one, the Minister said that substantial changes will be made to the organisation of the health service in Wales prior to the advent of the Assembly. Can he confirm that the Assembly will be considering the health structure in Wales? Therefore, is it not nonsense to press ahead with the reorganisation of trusts and health authorities now if there is to be yet another reorganisation once the assembly is in place?
Mr. Griffiths: It is obvious that the Welsh Assembly will have the power to consider how the health service operates in Wales. However, clear commitments were made in our manifesto to deal with various problems in the health service in Wales. We believe that it is right to start that agenda, to get the changes under way, and then to give the Welsh Assembly the opportunity to review matters. It is a continuing process; there is not a full stop to be put at the end of the process in one or two years' time. However, we are confident that the changes that we make will be ones that the Welsh Assembly will want to refine and develop.
Mr. John Smith: The rationalisation of the trusts in Wales is an important part of abolishing the internal market, but what is my hon. Friend the Minister doing to prevent health authorities from trying to influence the new configuration and pre-empting a Welsh Office decision? For example, Bro Taff's announcement that it will transfer mental health services from Sully hospital to Cardiff not only pre-empts a Welsh Office decision but is a retrograde step.
Mr. Griffiths: My hon. Friend has written to me about that matter. If he has not received my reply yet, it is on the way. Health authorities have powers to review the services provided in their areas. I have been in touch with the Bro Taff health authority and it is clear that nothing can happen without public consultation on its proposal. I do not want to pre-empt the health authority's decision, but I am sure that it will bear in mind the trust reconfiguration exercise.
Mr. Livsey: I thank the Minister for what he said about general practice commissioning groups and community health services. Does he agree that the Tory-constructed internal market of health authorities and trusts is inappropriate? In Powys, for example, the health authority has told the trust to save £4 million in the next three years, which will jeopardise the private finance initiative there. Has not time come for him to consider setting up one health authority for Wales with local trusts based on local communities?
Mr. Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman's proposal is interesting but has not been put forward substantively to the Welsh Office. We are looking at the abolition of the internal market, about which the hon. Gentleman rightly complains. If the trust in his area is having problems with PFI funding, he is free to make further representations to the health authority and, if needs be, to the Welsh Office on the issues that concern him.
Mr. Gareth Thomas: With reference to the restructuring of ambulance services in Wales, will my hon. Friend the Minister assure us that when making decisions he will take into account the excellent work of the North Wales ambulance trust?
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