Welsh Grand Committee
Monday 30 June 1997
(Mold)
[Mr. Barry Jones in the Chair]
11 am
The Chairman: Before I call the first question, may I thank Flintshire county council for agreeing to host the first meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee to be held in north Wales. I would particularly like to thank the chief executive of the council and his staff, as well as the Welsh office, for the thorough and efficient arrangements they have made for today's sitting. Hon. Members will be aware that the chairman of the council has kindly offered to provide lunch for members of the Committee. I therefore propose to suspend the Committee informally for 45 minutes for that purpose at about 1 o'clock.
If the Committee will bear with me, I shall now make a brief statement about the use of the Welsh language during these proceedings. This is the first meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee at which simultaneous interpretation facilities will be available for the translation into English of speeches made in Welsh, but not from English into Welsh. The arrangements governing the use of Welsh in the Committee were set out in the third report of the Procedure Committee of the Session 1995-96, which was approved by the House.
It may be helpful if I remind hon. Members of the main points of the Procedure Committee's report. They were that hon. Members proposing to speak Welsh should give the Chairman notice in English of their intention to do so--at the latest, when they are called to speak or to ask a question--that they should restrict themselves to one language in the course of any one speech, question or intervention and that points of order should be raised in English only.
I also ask hon. Members not to touch their microphones because they are being operated centrally by Hansard. Do not rest papers on them because that will cut into the system. If hon. Members wish to receive a translation, they should use channel 1.
We now come to questions for oral answer by the Secretary of State for Wales. As the Standing Order allows only 30 minutes for questions, may I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members for brief supplementary questions and for brief replies?
Oral Answers to Questions
Class Sizes
1. Mr Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what progress he has made towards ensuring class sizes below 30 for five, six and seven-year-olds. [4317]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): Bore da, or good morning, Mr. Jones. May I welcome you to the Chair of this important Committee on this historic occasion? I am sure that you will discharge your duties with your customary elegance.
We have taken the first step by introducing the Education (Schools) Bill, which will phase out the assisted places scheme and release resources to fund the reduction in class sizes. Consultation will start shortly with Welsh local authorities on the implementation of the policy for class-size reduction.
Mr. Edwards: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. May I assure him that in my constituency in Monmouthshire there is considerable support for the Government's commitment to reduce class sizes to below 30 for all five, six and seven-year-olds? In many of the schools that I have visited in the past few months, there is a high level of expectation that the policy can be implemented in the first term of a Labour Government.
Mr. Hain: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He can rest assured that we will get class sizes down just as soon as we can. It is vital that standards be driven up. The smaller the classes, the greater the opportunity for all our pupils to enjoy the very best standards and the excellence that schools in Wales have to offer.
Mr. Dafis (Translation): To what extent does the hon. Gentleman accept that the question of class sizes should be considered in the context of the need for a full schools policy for Wales that has been adapted and tailored to the requirements of Wales? To what extent will the White Paper reflect the considerable difference between conditions in Wales and in England and provide an opportunity to put Welsh policies in order? To what extent will the proposed Assembly have powers to enable us to design policies suited to Wales's needs?
Mr. Hain: The hon. Gentleman makes two important points. First we need a distinct education policy to meet Welsh needs and circumstances. For that reason the Government have proposed the first ever Welsh education White Paper, which will present relevant policy specifically for Welsh needs. Also, the establishment of a Welsh Assembly will help us to develop an education system that will produce the highest possible standards for Wales. This is why I am wearing my ``Yes for Wales'' sticker.
Mr. Gareth Thomas: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Welsh Office's decision to abolish the ill-fated nursery voucher scheme has received universal acclaim in Wales?
Mr. Hain: My hon. Friend speaks for everyone in the schools system in Wales--parents, teachers and everyone else. The nursery voucher system was a bureaucratic monstrosity that withdrew money from the activity of providing high standards in the classroom and transformed it into a nightmare of form-filling. We have now abolished that scheme--Wales was the first part of Britain to do so--and that has established our determination that a distinctive education policy for Wales, developed by people elected in Wales, should be presented.
Women
2. Ms Julie Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he proposes to promote the interests of women in Wales. [4318]
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ron Davies): May I, Mr. Jones, repeat the welcome extended to you earlier by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary?
The Government have announced that a new women's unit has been established to promote women's issues across Government, and I will take responsibility for women's issues in Wales. I have already met the four Welsh Members who are women. I intend to maintain regular contact with voluntary and other groups in Wales that are concerned with women's issues and I wish to see more women appointed to public bodies in Wales.
Ms Morgan: I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. As one of only seven women ever elected as a Member of Parliament for a Welsh constituency, I should like him to confirm that the White Paper on the Assembly will cover provisions to encourage full democratic representation from the whole population of Wales.
Mr. Davies: I am afraid that it would not be proper at this stage to divulge details of the White Paper, but we believe that if the Welsh Assembly is to be successful it must be representative of all shades of opinion, of men and women, and of the different culture and geography in Wales. As a party politician and member of the Labour party I would intend our rules on selection of candidates to ensure proper representation of women. I hope that that objective of mine and of my party is shared by members of other political parties.
Mrs. Betty Williams (Translation): I welcome my right hon. Friend's reply about the working party involving the four women Members of Parliament from Wales. Will my right hon. Friend comment on the possibility of establishing, with reference to that working party, a clear agenda and a clear path to the Secretary of State's office? Will he comment on the format of the working group with regard to the requirements of women in Wales?
Mr. Davies: I did mention meetings with the hon. Lady and her hon. Friends. I intend to continue those meetings with hon. Members who are women. I hope to arrange early meetings with Welsh Office officials, to take the matter forward. I hope that we can have meetings regularly. Their purpose will be to discuss the development of women's perspective across the board.
National Health Service Expenditure
3. Mr. Alan W. Williams to ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest estimates of the outturn expenditure on the national health service in Wales for 1996-97. [4319]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Win Griffiths): The latest forecast of expenditure on the national health service in Wales for 1996-97 stands at £2,292 million against a provision of £2,318 million.
Mr. Williams: I reiterate what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), said about being in Mold under your chairmanship, Mr. Jones.
I thank my hon. Friend for his reply, but must point out that it is not adequate. I represent the area covered by Dyfed-Powys health authority. We held a meeting about the problems that the authority faces in the current financial year. None of the trusts has been able to sign a contract for service this year and the chief executive has just declared that, soon, emergency-only treatment will be provided for patients of non-fundholder GPs. Morriston and many other Welsh trusts and health authorities also face problems.
I remind the Committee that the previous Government's legacy is one of inadequate resourcing for the health service; that it is most inadequate this year, and for future years; and that we must find more money for the health service.
Mr. Griffiths: I am well aware of the problems faced by Dyfed-Powys health authority and by one or two trusts in that authority's area. However, I know that both the authority and the trusts are making serious efforts to tackle their financial problems. Last year, not all the available money was spent, mainly because projects did not proceed as quickly as they should have. We will try to ensure that that money is carried over into the current year. We wish to ensure that the financial settlement of the problems of health authorities or trusts is undertaken in the context of a well-managed service. We do not want to find ourselves always having to put money into areas whose problems are not being tackled.
We wish also to examine the whole Welsh Office budget to see whether there is room for new priorities. We are greatly concerned about education--which my fellow Under-Secretary mentioned--and about ensuring that the health service runs effectively.
I assure my hon. Friend that we shall do everything possible to avoid a crisis and ensure that we move forward with a well-provided and well-managed health service for the Welsh people.
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