Fourth Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation
Thursday 4 June 1998
[Mr. John McWilliam in the Chair]
Draft Fire Services (Amendment)
(Northern Ireland) Order 1998
4.30 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Tony Worthington): I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Fire Services (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998.
Welcome to the Chair, Mr. McWilliam.
Before turning to the detail of the order, my colleagues and I would like to pay tribute to the work of the public services in Northern Ireland over the last 30 years, and in particular to the fire service. Everyone in Northern Ireland owes a tremendous debt of gratitude to the brigade, which plays an invaluable role in ensuring some normality of life. Firefighters have put their own lives at risk to protect the communities that they serve, and for many years have performed their duties under extremely difficult circumstances. They have sometimes been attacked by the very people whom they seek to safeguard. I am sure that the whole Committee will wish to pay tribute to the Northern Ireland fire service.
The order is relatively straightforward and will make three minor amendments to the Fire Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1984. Article 3 will enable the Northern Ireland fire brigade to provide firefighting at sea outside Northern Ireland. The amendment to article 5 of the 1984 order will bring the Northern Ireland legislation into line with the comparable legislation in Great Britain.
Article 4 will give specific powers to make provision for the determination of any question arising under the firemen's pension scheme and for appeals against such decisions. The 1984 order contains only a general power for making pensions schemes and the amendment will clarify the Department's powers in this respect. The amendment will bring Northern Ireland into line with Great Britain and will clarify the basis upon which the Department can consolidate the existing firemen's pensions scheme and introduce a new scheme, should that be necessary.
Article 5 will amend the constitution of the fire authority for Northern Ireland. At present, Belfast city council and the Association of Local Authorities of Northern Ireland are the only two bodies with nomination rights--each has the right to nominate four members. The amendment will extend rights of nomination, as the appointments will be made following consultation with all district councils and associations representative of those councils.
The draft order was circulated to some 140 individuals and bodies and 29 responses were received. Several points were raised, but overall the responses indicated a general welcome and support for the provisions of the order. I commend the draft order to the Committee.
4.33 pm
Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire): I join the Minister in paying tribute to the Northern Ireland fire brigade and to the many others who have given their service and their lives over many years. As the Minister responsible, I was the first ever to request from the chief fire officer an official visit to headquarters, where I saw the men on parade. It was a rewarding exercise, which the Minister might perhaps undertake one day.
Article 3 refers to the use of fire equipment for fighting fires at sea. The Minister rightly said that the article will bring Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. However, I cannot see the point of the article, given that specialised equipment is needed to fight fires at sea, which the Northern Ireland fire brigade does not have. More importantly, it is unlikely to be provided with funds to purchase such equipment in the near future. Although the article brings legislation into line with that in England and Wales, that seems irrelevant because the fire brigade has no equipment for actively and successfully fighting a fire at sea.
Can the Minister tell the Committee whether the escalating pension payments to members of the fire brigade who have retired, either at the normal age or early, are causing concern? Those payments come from the pension fund, which consists of money provided to the fire brigade through the Department of the Environment, Northern Ireland Office. Is there any concern about the remaining level of funding which is available for operational matters?
When I was in the Minister's shoes, I too had to wrestle with the problem of the constitution of the fire authority. For some time, as the Minister said, Belfast city council and the Association of Local Authorities of Northern Ireland had nomination rights. Without going into detail, there were political problems with that. We were always attempting--no doubt the Minister and his colleagues have continued those attempts--to find a way of achieving a more balanced representation on the fire authority from across the community and involving as many representatives as possible from district councils--that is, elected representatives from the political parties.
I am not unhappy with the solution, but I am not sure why it is necessary in article 5(2) to include the words
``as appear to the Department to be desirable''.
I am not sure why those words are necessary. Without them, the provision would require a minimum of eight members from district councils to be appointed after consultation with such district councils and associations or bodies that represent those councils. That would be sufficient, so perhaps the Minister will clarify why it is deemed important to include the word ``desirable''. It has been interpreted in some quarters as being heavy handed and smacks of the Department of the Environment wanting to control the representation from elected members of district councils. I am sure that that is not the Minister's intention, but that could be the interpretation and an explanation is required.
I shall be interested to hear the Minister's response to the small points that I have raised.
4.38 pm
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde): I promise to be brief, but I have a couple of questions, which will not surprise the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my hon. Friend the Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthington). I too offer my sincere compliments to the men and women of the fire-fighting services in Northern Ireland who have suffered dreadfully over the years.
Will my hon. Friend confirm that when the order refers to fire-fighting at sea, it refers to fire-fighting and rescue operations within and outwith territorial limits? What insurance protection is there for fire-fighters who are called out to a fire on board a vessel sailing under a flag of convenience--for example, at the risk of sounding ethnocentric, a Panamanian ship or one of those rust-buckets that we occasionally see in Scottish waters? What insurance protection is available for members of the fire-fighting service if they are injured when tackling a fire on such a ship outwith territorial waters? Am I right in thinking that there is no state system of insurance or compensation.
Am I right in thinking that there is no state system of insurance or compensation for someone caught in such circumstances? Such a gap in the legislation would worry me greatly. I have discussed this important question with members of the fire brigade in my part of Scotland. Fire brigades are not called out to many such incidents--for which we can thank heaven--but such incidents occur occasionally, and firemen and women may have to rescue a trapped seaman or deal with a fire. I want an assurance that our firefighters are protected in respect of injuries inflicted during such emergency operations.
The Opposition spokesman spoke of a lack of specialised equipment, which is rich coming from the hon. Gentleman that his party was in office for 18 years. Why is not such equipment available? A further question needs to be asked: what specialised training has been or is to be given to firemen and women in coastal communities, who are most likely to be called out to fires at sea? I need hardly remind my hon. Friend that there is a specialised training unit in Scotland, and I think that there are two or three south of the border. In MacDonald road, Edinburgh, there is a simulated ship--as you will know, Mr. McWilliam--for the training of firemen and merchant and fishing vessel crews to deal with fires at sea. A brother of mine experienced a fire at sea in his trawler in the Arctic, which he described as the most harrowing experience of his life. The lights went off, which made finding his way around the ship--which was a familiar task for him and his crew mates--a nightmare.
Could Northern Ireland firefighters come to Scotland to receive the specialised training provided in the Edinburgh training centre? Alternatively, is such training provided somewhere in Northern Ireland?
The Minister may not be able to give an answer on the important question about insurance cover. If he needs to write to me, I hope that he will place a copy of his letter in the Library.
4.43 pm
Mr. Worthington: I note what the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) said about his visit to the headquarters when he was responsible for the fire service. I note his suggestion that I should do the same, which I am willing to do, although the noble Lord Dubs, who is responsible for this matter, will be surprised by my presence. I shall pass on to him the message that it is worth doing.
We refer to firefighters for shorthand purposes, but we must realise that they do a great deal more than fight fires--there is a great deal that the fire brigade can do to tackle emergencies at sea. Hydraulic cutting equipment and other rescue tools are carried by emergency support units, and the only incident that occurred in recent years required the fire service to use pumping equipment because a vessel had run aground. Much can be done, and there are personnel in the fire brigade who have particular expertise with regard to hazardous materials. All firefighters are first aid trained and can render assistance in the extrication of persons trapped below decks and in other limited areas. That does not mean that they will have the equipment to deal with all circumstances at sea. For example, one would not expect a land-based fire brigade to be equipped with the booms and chemical sprays to deal with fires on the surface of the sea. However, in collaboration with the coastguard and other agencies, the resources of the fire service will be extremely valuable.
The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire referred to the issue of resources going into pensions as a technicality. It is not a technicality; it is an important issue. There is a problem with escalating pension costs, but the problem is not as severe in Northern Ireland as it is in Great Britain, and Ministers are currently considering fire service funding, specifically in the comprehensive spending review.
The fire authority was set up about a quarter of a century ago, and it took over from the only full-time brigade at that time, the Belfast city council fire brigade. That is why the right to nominate four members of the authority was given to Belfast and the other nominations were given to the Association of Local Authorities of Northern Ireland. We have moved on from that time, and it now seems appropriate to give nomination rights to all councils in Northern Ireland, as well as to the bodies associated with the representation of councils.
As the hon. Gentleman will know, there is a problem with ALANI, in that it has come to represent only Unionist councils, so if one were to seek nomination from ALANI, one would receive only Unionist nominations. The reason for giving the right of nomination to ALANI and to all councils is to ensure that representation across the communities will be more balanced.
The phrase in article 5(2)(2),
``as appear to the Department to be desirable.''
allows the Department to consult any body that might be formed to represent councils alongside, or in place of, ALANI. As with all these matters, we hope and are working like mad to ensure that this will be a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly to sort out for itself, to ensure that the police authority represents all interests.
The hon. Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) raised the important issue of coverage for firefighters in such situations. In this order, we take one step forward in that respect, because if there had previously been an incident at sea, it would have been possible for the Northern Ireland fire brigade to provide help, but on a voluntary basis. That might have resulted in an insurance claim, had the fire authority been negligent, because authority had been given on a voluntary, rather than on a statutory, basis. The order plugs that loophole.
As for my hon. Friend's question, which is important, I shall write to him, as he suggested, to ensure that it is answered in full.
I think that I have answered the questions and I commend the order to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Fire Services (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998.
Committee rose at Ten minutes to Five o'clock.
The following Members attended the Committee:
McWilliam, Mr. John (Chairman)
Cann, Mr.
Chaytor, Mr.
Clark, Mr. Paul
Cran, Mr.
Dowd, Mr.
Gapes, Mr.
Lepper, Mr.
Mahon, Alice
Moss, Mr.
Truswell, Mr.
Willis, Mr.
Worthington, Mr.
The following also attended, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(2):
Godman, Dr. Norman (Greenock and Inverclyde)
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