| Crime and Disorder Bill [Lords]
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Mr. Hawkins: I am listening carefully to what the Minister is saying. He is putting forward the case that Government new clause 21 is better than new clause 10. But would he not agree that the limit that the Government have chosen to impose relates to the way in which section 60 power in the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 talks only about.
whereas new clause 10 talks about a much wider range of offences? Would the Minister not recognise that many Opposition Members feel that new clause 21 is inadequate because it does not cover a wide enough range? Mr. O'Brien: I was beginning to explore what hon. Members in their perhaps more civil libertarian mode perceive as potential problems that could arise with the exercise of this power as we are putting it forward. We believe it is reasonable to get the balance right in this way but we also need to be sure that we do not create powers which cause greater civil liberties problems. We have entered into discussions with the police and have had substantial discussions in government about how to move forward with this proposal. It presents some difficulties and we should be straightforward about it. My concern about the proposals in new clause 10 is that they create too many difficulties. New clause 22 provides for regulations to be made for the retention and disposal of articles seized under section 60. New clause 23 provides a power of arrest if someone fails to comply with the demand to remove his or her face covering. For Scotland, new clause 23 provides a power of arrest for the knives and offensive weapons provisions of section 60 as well as for the proposed face-coverings power. It corrects an anomaly: in England and Wales the police already have a power, under the general arrest conditions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, to arrest someone who refuses to be stopped and searched for a knife or offensive weapon, but such a power of arrest without warrant does not exist in Scotland. Failure to be stopped and searched for knives or offensive weapons attracts a maximum penalty of summary conviction of three months in prison, a level 3 fine or both. The Government proposal would extend that to the new offence of failure to comply with a demand to remove a face covering. Amendment No. 423 will extend the measures proposed in clauses 21, 22 and 23 for Scotland. I can see the drift of new clause 10, but it does not really address the problem. Where an officer has the reasonable suspicion described in the clause he can already take firm action, by arresting the individual. The problem occurs where the police see people wearing balaclavas or other face coverings in a situation where they believe that trouble is brewing, but where they cannot demonstrate reasonable suspicion that the people concerned are going to commit offences. New clause 10 would not therefore fit the problem. I hope that the Committee will agree that the Government's proposal in new clauses 21 to 23 is the better approach. Mr. Malins: I shall speak briefly in support of new clause 10, in the names of my hon. Friends the Members for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown), for Epping Forest, for Gainsborough, for Mid-Sussex, for Beaconsfield and myself. I have heard what the Minister has had to say. The Minister will understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold has taken a great interest in this matter. It being One o'clock The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
The Following members attended the Committee
O'Hara, Mr. Edward (Chairman)
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| Prepared 9 June 1998 | |
