Standing Committee B
Tuesday 24 February 1998
(Morning)
[Mr. Barry Jones in the Chair]
10.30 am
The Chairman: When the Committee adjourned on 12 February it had just disposed of amendment No. 1, in clause 2, page 1, line 16. Since then, the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) has tabled an amendment, No. 105, to line 14, to leave out subsection (2) of clause 2. Under the rules of the House, the Committee can entertain amendments--assuming that they are selected by the Chairman--as far back in the same clause as the point at which the clause was last amended.
I have decided, therefore, to exercise my discretion to select amendment No. 105, but for a Division only, as I judge that the matters raised by the amendment have already been adequately discussed in the debate that took place at the last sitting on the amendments to subsection (2).
Clause 2
General functions of the Police Authority
Amendment proposed: No. 105, in page 1, leave out lines 14 to 16.--[Mr. Peter Robinson.]
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The Committee divided: Ayes 2, Noes 10.
Division No. 2]
AYES
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Walker, Mr. Cecil
NOES
Colman, Mr. Tony
Dowd, Mr. Jim
Gapes, Mr. Mike
Hesford, Mr. Stephen
Ingram, Mr. Adam
Jackson, Helen
McIsaac, Shona
McWalter, Mr. Tony
Pound, Mr. Stephen
Worthington, Mr. Tony
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire): I beg to move amendment No. 19, in page 1, line 18, at end insert--
`(3A) The Police Authority shall, with the approval of the Secretary of State, determine the manpower establishment of the police force as to--
(a) the maximum number of each rank; and
(b) the maximum number of persons appointed, as either civilian staff or traffic wardens'.
The amendment deals with the manpower levels of the RUC. Section 6 of the Police Act (Northern Ireland) 1970 sets out the role of the Police Authority in relation to the strength and operational control of the police force.
``The Police Authority shall, subject to the approval of the Minister of Home Affairs''--
subsequently the Secretary of State--
``given with the concurrence of the Minister of Finance, from time to time determine the maximum number of persons of each rank which is to constitute the establishment of the police force and the maximum number of persons who may be appointed as police cadets and traffic wardens respectively.''
That is the current position under the Police Act (Northern Ireland) 1970. The Police Authority has considerable powers, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State, to determine levels of manpower.
The Bill would remove the power that I have outlined--as, indeed, it has been removed for England and Wales under the 1994 and 1996 legislation. Under the more recent provisions, the Police Authority's involvement in setting manpower levels ceases to be statutory and becomes a matter of discretion, or negotiation involving the Chief Constable and the authority.
The power currently enjoyed by the Police Authority for Northern Ireland is significant. It is a prestigious responsibility, which confers real influence over a key aspect of policing organisation. It is a boost to the standing of the Police Authority in the community and it enhances and promotes the public's perception of the authority as an impartial and independent non-political influence on policing matters. I believe that the Labour party felt the same when it was in opposition. The Labour party consultation paper entitled ``Policing in Northern Ireland--A Service for all People'' which is claimed as the blueprint for the Bill, lists on page 10 the powers and responsibilities envisaged for the Police Authority, including (h), which is
``Other duties, as at present, such as setting the establishment of the police''.
The previous Government produced a White Paper on the matter, which set out responsibilities for the Police Authority in annexe B. Nowhere under the heading of ``Personnel'' does the document mention anything about the Police Authority having a say in determining police manning levels. I have already said that the 1996 Act does not mention powers of police authorities to set manpower grades and levels in England and Wales. Under the 1996 Act authorities have powers and responsibilities as to personnel management. For instance, section 11 deals with appointment and removal of chief constables, section 12 with the appointment of assistant chief constables, section 13 with the various ranks in the police force and section 15 with the employment of civilian staff. Section 16 deals with the employment of a clerk and section 17 covers the appointment of persons not employed directly by the police authorities. But that legislation for England and Wales does not grant police authorities any powers to determine establishment numbers and structure. Has the omission of that power from the Bill more to do with the England and Wales legislation and the previous Government's designs than with the Government's stated aims in the consultation paper, which led the Police Authority to believe that it would retain that important power?
The Government have to explain the reasons for changing their minds. Does the change constitute a U-turn? Was the change based on civil servants' advice or a desire to bring the measure in line with England and Wales legislation, without considering the uniqueness and differences that pertain to Northern Ireland? What is the present Police Authority's view? It was probably misled by the consultation paper into believing that it would retain the important powers that we are considering.
In the past few years, which included two ceasefire periods, the role and organisation of the RUC has been closely scrutinised. The reorganisation of the duties and role of RUC officers during the first ceasefire was supposed to lead to the so-called peace dividend, which was to come from substantial savings on police overtime and money for compensation. Discussions on the downsizing of the RUC also took place. The Minister and I referred to that fundamental review. I shall return to that subject later.
The size of the police force was a fundamental issue, which the Police Authority, representatives from the Northern Ireland Office and from among the Chief Constable's officers considered not only during the ceasefire but afterwards. The subject of manpower levels is no less topical or contentious during the current ceasefire. The Police Authority believes that it is essential that it plays a pivotal role in any discussions about the size of the police force in future. It also believes that the removal of the power for which the 1970 Act provides would remove the community voice from the deliberations on the crucial matter of the size of the police force.
The size of the police force and its relationship with the community, and the powers given to the Chief Constable and the Police Authority are topical, important issues. In their overall approach, the Government share the previous Government's view that those matters are important to Northern Ireland. However it could be construed that removing this power from the Police Authority at this sensitive time would send a clear signal to Northern Ireland.
10.45 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Tony Worthington): To help me prepare my response, could the hon. Gentleman clarify whether this is a--legitimate--probing amendment, or whether what he is saying constitutes the view of the Opposition?
Mr. Moss: I do not need to tell the Minister what my amendment is about. I am simply arguing a case. It is all in the context of which powers the Police Authority is to retain in the restructured tripartite structure. The Police Authority maintain--and we agree with much of what it believes--that this Bill attacks it from two sides. It gives additional powers to the Chief Constable and to the Secretary of State. The attack on the Police Authority comes from two directions.
The amendment must be seen in the context of the whittling away of the Police Authority's powers--as it sees the situation. The Minister, who I understand was the author of the consultation document, will not tell the Committee why he changed his mind between writing that document and the presentation of the Bill. The amendment must be seen in the context of the powers that the Police Authority is likely to retain and that are important to it.
Mr. Worthington: Could the hon. Gentleman confirm that he has not changed his mind and that his position on the Police and Magistrates' Court Act 1994 is still the same as the Government's?
Mr. Moss: The Minister keeps asking whether I have changed my mind, but I do not have to say. I cannot see the point of his questioning. We are dealing with legislation for Northern Ireland and the powers of the Police Authority. A power will be removed, but its removal will not, on its own, be an issue on which the Police Authority will make a final stand. It sees the removal of that power in the context of the removal of other powers and responsibilities from it, which partly explains its position.
The Police Authority sees the power as important, not just because it wants to be heavily involved in detailed discussions on manpower levels, but because it will be perceived in the wider community as a reduction in its power and influence on a critical issue. If part of the legislation is being brought forward--the Police Authority would say with some haste--in the context of the talks process and the overall political dimension, the Government must recognise the Police Authority's belief that too many powers are being taken away from it and that that will not sit well with the community as a whole. It may set the Government back on their intentions and desires to bring about a consensus on policing in Northern Ireland.
I promised that I would not take up too much of the Committee's time on this amendment. I emphasise that the issue must be seen in the context of the overall designation of powers that the Police Authority perceives. The Government must explain why they have changed their mind and why they see the power as irrelevant for the Police Authority--in the context of all other powers that they appear to be taking away.
| 
