House of Commons - Standards and Privileges

Select Committee on Standards and Privileges Eighth Report

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS RELATING TO THE REPORT (continued)

Paragraph 7A (now paragraph 8) read, as follows:

"The most difficult issue is that of the alleged payments to Mr Hamilton by Mr Mohamed Al Fayed. Having regard to the nature of the alleged transactions and the conflict of evidence there can be no absolute proof that such payments were, or were not, made. The principal evidence upon which the Commissioner based his findings is contained in paragraph 789 of the Appendix to the First Report. There is no oral evidence independent of Mr Al Fayed and those who were working with him at the time. Mr Hamilton has consistently denied that he took "cash for questions" or was paid for lobbying services. He questioned at length the credibility of witnesses who gave evidence on this matter. We have considered whether we should carry out our own investigation. Such an investigation would involve taking evidence from those witnesses who gave evidence to the Commissioner and also reassembling and reassessing a considerable body of material. The Committee would become engaged in the details of inquiry which the appointment of the Commissioner was meant to avoid. Detailed investigation was by the Commissioner. His terms of reference were:

"To enquire into allegations of misconduct against Mr Neil Hamilton and other Members of Parliament with a view to establishing whether there has been any breach of House of Commons rules, in the letter or in the spirit, and to report the findings to the Select Committee on Standards and Privileges."

We are satisfied that the Commissioner has carried out a thorough inquiry which took the evidence presented to him fully into account. We have no reason to question his findings and we therefore endorse them."

Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out from the word "there" to the word "The" and insert the words "could be no substitute for an examination of Mr Hamilton and those offering contrary evidence, i.e. Mr Al Fayed, Ms Bozek and Ms Bond if there were to be any chance of reaching a clear conclusion."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 3	Noes, 7
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe	Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Alan Williams	Mr Michael Foster
	Mr Charles Kennedy
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac

Another Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out from the word "Report" to the word "Mr" in line 6 and insert the words "Contrary to sub-paragraph (vii) of that paragraph we do not accept that the admitted misconduct of Mr Smith can assist us in reaching a verdict in the case of Mr Hamilton. On the other hand, there is material and circumstantial evidence on which it would have been necessary to examine Mr Hamilton in order to reach a fair conclusion."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2	Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe	Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
	Mr Michael Foster
	Mr Charles Kennedy
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac
	Mr Alan Williams

Another Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out the words "oral evidence" and insert the word "testimony".-(Mr Peter Bottomley.)

Question, That the Amendment be made, put and negatived.

Another Amendment proposed, in line 9, to leave out the words "we should" and insert the words "it is within our remit to".-(Mr Dale Campbell-Savours.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 8	Noes, 1
Mr Peter Bottomley	Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

Amendment made.

Another Amendment proposed, in line 10, after the word "from", to insert the words "certain of".-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 3	Noes, 7
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Peter Bottomley
Mr Charles Kennedy	Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Miss Ann Widdecombe	Mr Michael Foster
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac
	Mr Alan Williams

Another Amendment proposed, in line 11, to leave out from the word "Commissioner" to the word "The".-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 1	Noes, 9
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Peter Bottomley
	Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
	Mr Michael Foster
	Mr Charles Kennedy
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac
	Miss Ann Widdecombe
	Mr Alan Williams

Another Amendment proposed, in line 12, to leave out from the word "inquiry" to the word "Detailed" in line 13.-(Miss Ann Widdecombe.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2	Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe	Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
	Mr Michael Foster
	Mr Charles Kennedy
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac
	Mr Alan Williams

Another Amendment proposed, in line 13, after the word "avoid", to insert the words "with no certainty that we could take the matter any further than he had done".-(Mr Dale Campbell-Savours.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 7	Noes, 3
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours	Mr Peter Bottomley
Mr Michael Foster	Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Charles Kennedy	Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

Another Amendment proposed, in line 19, to leave out from the word "inquiry" to the word "We" in line 20.-(Miss Ann Widdecombe.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2	Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe	Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
	Mr Michael Foster
	Mr Charles Kennedy
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac
	Mr Alan Williams

Another Amendment proposed, in line 20, to leave out from the word "account" to the end of the paragraph and insert the words "However, the Commissioner cannot be investigator, judge and jury. It is essential that, as foreseen in Nolan, those complained of should have the right of appeal to the Committee. In this case while Mr Hamilton has tried to exercise that right in practice he has been deprived of it."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2	Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe	Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
	Mr Michael Foster
	Mr Charles Kennedy
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac
	Mr Alan Williams

Another Amendment proposed, in line 20, to leave out from the word "account" to the end of the paragraph and insert the words "The Committee did not arrive at a practicable way of reaching a judgement which adds to or subtracts from the Commissioner's findings."-(Mr Dale Campbell-Savours.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 9	Noes, 0
Mr Peter Bottomley
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Alan Williams

Question put, That the paragraph, as amended, stand part of the Report.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 8	Noes, 2
Mr Peter Bottomley	Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours	Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

A paragraph-(Mr Peter Bottomley)-brought up, read the first and second time, and inserted (now paragraph 9).

Paragraph 8 (now paragraph 10) read, as follows:

"This report is the final report dealing with allegations made in the media in the summer of 1996 on the conduct of Members. Its scale and scope were wholly unlike anything envisaged by the House when it created the new system for examining complaints against the conduct of Members and appointed a Commissioner for Standards. Indeed it is important to remember that the Commissioner's inquiry did not arise from a specific complaint but from a statement made to the House by the Speaker and from the request by our predecessors that he should "investigate as a matter of urgency the serious allegations about the conduct of Members referred to by Madam Speaker in the House on 14 October". Unlike our normal procedure where the onus is on a complainant to submit evidence supporting any complaint to the Commissioner, the Commissioner was given the task of defining the allegations and assembling the evidence. The amount of that evidence was very considerable. Over sixty witnesses provided evidence, thirteen oral hearings were held and some fourteen thousand pages of documents were submitted. The Commissioner was asked by the previous Committee not only to investigate but where possible to reach conclusions and then report to the Committee."

Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out from the word "Members" to the end of the paragraph and insert the words "The Committee has entirely failed to reach a conclusion on the key issue as to whether Mr Hamilton took money from Mr Al Fayed. It has equally avoided the logically inseparable issue as to whether Mr Al Fayed was guilty of corruption. After five months of deliberation on the matter the Committee has been unwilling or unable to discharge its responsibility to Mr Hamilton, to Parliament and to the public to hear his appeal, to examine him and his principal accusers and to use its best endeavours to reach a fair and safe verdict."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2	Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe	Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
	Mr Michael Foster
	Mr Charles Kennedy
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac
	Mr Alan Williams

Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the Report.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 8	Noes, 1
Mr Peter Bottomley	Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

Paragraph 9 (now paragraph 11) read, as follows:

"The scale and nature of this inquiry, analogous in some ways to that of a tribunal of inquiry, has, however, highlighted the need for the Committee to reassess its own role in relation to inquiries conducted by the Commissioner for Standards. Although some guidance was provided by the Select Committee on Standards in Public Life and by the Nolan Committee there is no clear definition of the Committee's appellate role. The Committee intends to examine this matter further and to report to the House."

Amendments made.

Amendments proposed, in line 3, after the word "Standards", to insert the words "We found the Committee's procedures unsatisfactory."-(Miss Ann Widdecombe.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 4	Noes, 5
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours	Mr Peter Bottomley
Mr Quentin Davies	Mr Michael Foster
Miss Ann Widdecombe	Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Alan Williams	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac

Another Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out from "Standards" to the end of the paragraph and insert the words "We are concerned about the expectation of some, including Members, that the Committee can also act as an appellate body with investigative powers. Whilst the Nolan recommendations included reference to an appeals procedure, we note that the Select Committee on Standards in Public Life charged with the responsibility for dealing with implementing Nolan did not recommend a formal appeal procedure relevant to these circumstances - neither did the House when it agreed to resolutions implementing that Committee's recommendations. We therefore totally reject the proposition that the Committee could turn itself into an appellate body with investigative powers without compromising post-Nolan new procedures. We are, however, aware of the implications of the Commissioner's Report for Mr Hamilton and others and have received repeated representations on the need for an appellate procedure to be devised to deal with such cases. We accept that if the interests of natural justice are to be upheld a new procedure should be devised. We believe that the Committee on Standards in Public Life and Parliament should be asked to reconsider the matter of appeals procedures."-(Mr Dale Campbell-Savours.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2	Noes, 6
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours	Mr Peter Bottomley
Mr Michael Foster	Mr Quentin Davies
	Mr Tom Levitt
	Mr Terry Lewis
	Shona McIsaac
	Mr Alan Williams

Another Amendment made.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Question put, That the Report be the Eighth Report of the Committee to the House.

The Committee divided.

Ayes, 8	Noes, 1
Mr Peter Bottomley	Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

Ordered, That the Chairman do make the Report to the House.

Ordered, That the following papers be appended to the Report:

(i) memorandum submitted by the Commissioner on points raised by Mr Hamilton in his written evidence;

(ii) correspondence between the Clerk and Mr Hamilton between 31 July and 18 September 1997;

(iii) part of a letter to the Chairman from Mr Al Fayed's solicitor dated 14 October 1997; and

(iv) letter to the Chairman from the Editor of The Guardian dated 17 October 1997.

[Adjourned till Tuesday 18 November at half-past Ten o'clock.



© Parliamentary copyright 1997	Prepared 6 November 1997