MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
RELATING TO THE REPORT
Tuesday
28 October 1997
Members present:
Mr Robert Sheldon, in
the Chair
| Mr Peter Bottomley
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Michael Foster (Hastings & Rye)
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
| Mr Alan Williams (Swansea West)
|
The Committee deliberated.
Motion made, and Question
put, That the Committee, having heard Mr Hamilton's statement,
will take no further evidence and will consider the terms of its
report to the House.-(Mr Peter Bottomley.)
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 6
| Noes, 2
|
| Mr Peter Bottomley
| Mr Quentin Davies
|
| Mr Michael Foster
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
| |
| Mr Tom Levitt
| |
| Mr Terry Lewis
| |
| Shona McIsaac
| |
The Committee further deliberated.
[Adjourned till Tuesday
4 November at half-past Ten o'clock.
Tuesday
4 November 1997
Members present:
Mr Robert Sheldon, in
the Chair
| Mr Peter Bottomley
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Michael Foster (Hastings & Rye)
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
| Mr Alan Williams (Swansea West)
|
The Committee deliberated.
Draft Report [Complaints
from Mr Mohamed Al Fayed, The Guardian and others against
25 Members and former Members: Second Further Report: Mr Neil
Hamilton], proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
Ordered,
That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.
Paragraph 1 read, as follows:
"On 3 July 1997
the Committee published its First Report, together with the report
of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards on allegations
made against twenty-five Members and former Members. On 1 August
we published our Seventh Report containing our findings on twenty-four
of those Members and former Members. We have now completed our
proceedings in respect of Mr Neil Hamilton."
Amendment proposed, in line
4, to leave out from the second word "Members" to the
end of the paragraph and insert the words "We have not carried
through the second stage of the procedure foreseen in the Nolan
Report and the First Report of the Select Committee on Standards
in Public Life and are therefore not in a position to reach any
conclusions."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)
Question put, That the Amendment
be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 2
| Noes, 8
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Mr Peter Bottomley
|
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
|
| Mr Michael Foster
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
|
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Alan Williams
|
Question put, That the paragraph
stand part of the Report.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 9
| Noes, 1
|
| Mr Peter Bottomley
| Mr Quentin Davies
|
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
| |
| Mr Michael Foster
| |
| Mr Charles Kennedy
| |
| Mr Tom Levitt
| |
| Mr Terry Lewis
| |
| Shona McIsaac
| |
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
| |
| Mr Alan Williams
| |
Paragraph 2 read, as follows:
"In our First
Report we drew attention to the right of those Members criticised
to submit a written statement to the Committee rebutting or challenging
any findings of the Commissioner. Mr Hamilton's submission has
already been published. We asked the Commissioner to provide
us with briefing on the main points raised by Mr Hamilton. A
written summary of the Commissioner's comments is appended. Mr
Hamilton made an oral statement to the Committee on 14 October
1997, the text of which is published together with this Report.
Also appended are representations from Mr Al Fayed's solicitors
and from The Guardian seeking, on behalf of witnesses,
a comparable right of reply to Mr Hamilton's statement. After
careful consideration the Committee decided by a majority that
these replies would not be necessary to enable it to reach its
conclusions."
Amendment proposed, in line
9, to leave out the word "careful" and insert the word
"inadequate".-(Mr Quentin Davies.)
Question put, That the Amendment
be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 2
| Noes, 8
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Mr Peter Bottomley
|
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
|
| Mr Michael Foster
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
|
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Alan Williams
|
Another Amendment proposed,
in line 9, to leave out the words "decided by a majority"
and insert the word "concluded".-(Mr Peter Bottomley.)
Question put, That the Amendment
be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 8
| Noes, 2
|
| Mr Peter Bottomley
| Mr Quentin Davies
|
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
|
| Mr Michael Foster
| |
| Mr Charles Kennedy
| |
| Mr Tom Levitt
| |
| Mr Terry Lewis
| |
| Shona McIsaac
| |
| Mr Alan Williams
| |
Question put, That the paragraph,
as amended, stand part of the Report.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 8
| Noes, 2
|
| Mr Peter Bottomley
| Mr Quentin Davies
|
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
|
| Mr Michael Foster
| |
| Mr Charles Kennedy
| |
| Mr Tom Levitt
| |
| Mr Terry Lewis
| |
| Shona McIsaac
| |
| Mr Alan Williams
| |
Paragraph 3 read, as follows:
"The procedures
used by the Commissioner and the reasons for their adoption are
published in the Committee's First Report. In his submission
Mr Hamilton made a number of objections to the manner in which
the Commissioner's inquiry had been conducted. We do not find
Mr Hamilton's objections valid in terms of our remit from the
House. We accept the Commissioner's description of the approach
he adopted:
"This was a parliamentary
inquiry and there was no attempt to replicate the procedures of
a court action. The proposed procedures were shown in advance
to the previous Select Committee and to complainees. The approach
was inquisitorial, not adversarial. Its sole purpose was to arrive
at the truth, not to achieve a "conviction"."."
Amendment proposed, in line
3, to leave out from the word "We" to the end of the
paragraph and insert the words "are unfortunately as a result
of our own decisions not in a position to sustain or to reject
Mr Hamilton's objections."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)
Question put, That the Amendment
be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 1
| Noes, 8
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Mr Peter Bottomley
|
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
|
| Mr Michael Foster
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
|
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Alan Williams
|
Question put, That the paragraph
stand part of the Report.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 8
| Noes, 1
|
| Mr Peter Bottomley
| Mr Quentin Davies
|
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
| |
| Mr Michael Foster
| |
| Mr Charles Kennedy
| |
| Mr Tom Levitt
| |
| Mr Terry Lewis
| |
| Shona McIsaac
| |
| Mr Alan Williams
| |
Paragraph 4 read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 5 read, as follows:
"We have carefully
examined Mr Hamilton's representations. Essentially, these repeat
the evidence he gave to the Commissioner for Standards. We do
not consider that Mr Hamilton has brought forward material new
evidence."
Amendment proposed, in line
1, to leave out from the word "have" to the end of the
paragraph and insert the words "not begun seriously to examine
Mr Hamilton's representations. It is quite without precedent
or justification that questions to Mr Hamilton should have been
disallowed, and no contrary witnesses called. As a result, we
are quite unable to make any progress on the key issue as to whether
or not cash changed hands between Mr Al Fayed and Mr Hamilton."-(Mr
Quentin Davies.)
Question put, That the Amendment
be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 2
| Noes, 8
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Mr Peter Bottomley
|
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
|
| Mr Michael Foster
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
|
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Alan Williams
|
Another Amendment proposed,
in line 2, to leave out from the word "Standards" to
the end of the paragraph.-(Miss Ann Widdecombe.)
Question put, That the Amendment
be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 2
| Noes, 8
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Mr Peter Bottomley
|
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
|
| Mr Michael Foster
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
|
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Alan Williams
|
Amendment made.
Paragraph, as amended, agreed
to.
Paragraph 6 read, as follows:
"Our conclusions
are as follows:
(i) When it
investigated a complaint against Mr Hamilton's failure to register
his stay at the Ritz Hotel in Paris in the previous Parliament,
the Select Committee on Members' Interests did not elicit the
detailed evidence on Mr Hamilton's relationship with Mr Al Fayed
and the campaign managed by Ian Greer Associates which the Commissioner's
inquiry has now established. The relationship was essentially
a business relationship in which Mr Hamilton advocated Mr Al Fayed's
cause. He received material benefits. The visit should have
been registered and Mr Hamilton must have known that it should
have been.
(ii) We examined
the evidence relating to the information which Mr Hamilton gave
to the then President of the Board of Trade, Mr Heseltine. Mr
Hamilton never gave away more information about his relationship
with Mr Greer than he had to. The Commissioner's finding that
Mr Heseltine was "deliberately misled" appears to us
to be justified.
(iii) We accept
the Commissioner's findings on Mr Hamilton's failures to declare
his interests when dealing with Ministers and officials.
(iv) We recognise
the force of the Commissioner's criticism of Mr Hamilton's acceptance
of a commission payment for introducing a constituent to Mr Greer
as well as a consultancy fee for representing that constituent's
interests. Such actions do not appear to us to be contrary to
the present rules of the House. We do not agree with the Commissioner's
interpretation of the rules in this instance. We noted in our
Seventh Report that we consider it to be inappropriate for a Member
to receive a fee for introducing a constituency company to another
company or organisation.
(v) The Commissioner
found a variety of occasions, most of which are now admitted by
Mr Hamilton, when he failed to register his interests. We draw
attention to paragraph 813 of the Commissioner's report-
"In
addition to the stay at the Ritz (dealt with earlier) the main
allegations against Mr Hamilton under this heading [alleged non-registration
of interests] are considered below:
(i) In
1989 Mr and Mrs Hamilton spent a few days as guests of Mr Al Fayed
on the estate of Balnagown Castle. This was clearly a benefit
of substantial value and should, in my view, have been registered.
Mr Hamilton regarded it as "private hospitality": but
this is a concept not recognised by the Register and, given the
lobbying he was conducting at the time on Mr Al Fayed's behalf,
the benefit could certainly have been thought to affect his conduct
as a Member.
(ii) Mr
Hamilton acknowledged receiving two Harrods hampers - one in 1988
and one in 1989. By today's standards these would be registrable,
but I am inclined to think that this may not have been the accepted
position at the time.
(iii) Unlike
most, if not all, other lobbyists, IGA regularly paid commissions
to Members who introduced new business. In 1987/88 Mr Hamilton
received an introduction commission of £4,000 and a consultancy
fee of £7,500 in relation to the National Nuclear Corporation.
He registered the latter but not the former, on the grounds that
the introduction payment was ex gratia and unexpected. In my
view there is no doubt that the introduction commission should
have been registered since it might have been thought to affect
Mr Hamilton's conduct as a Member. This was also the view of
the Select Committee on Members' Interests at the time and, although
the Committee recognised that the categorisation of the Register
was unsatisfactory, they did not see this as a justification for
a failure to register such payments.
(iv) In
1989 Mr Hamilton received an introduction fee from IGA of £6,000,
which had been agreed in 1988, in respect of US Tobacco (UST).
Since this was his second such fee, it could no longer be argued
that it was wholly unexpected. It should, in my judgement have
been registered during 1989 and, in any event, in January 1990
after the Registrar had specifically reminded Members at the end
of 1989 of their obligation to declare single payments.
(v) Also
in 1989 Mr Hamilton enjoyed a three night stay at a hotel in New
York at the invitation of UST. This, I think, was a marginal
case, since he was on Select Committee business and his accommodation
would have been paid for anyway. Nevertheless, the benefit could
still have been thought to affect his conduct as a Member and
would have been better registered.
(vi) It
has been suggested that the payment relating to UST was, in fact,
a consultancy fee and not an introduction payment. The evidence
to the inquiry of Mr Walter, the former UST executive was not
conclusive on this point. But this is not an important distinction
if, as is the case, the payment was registrable in either event.
(vii) In
1990 Mr Hamilton received £667 from Strategy Network International
for a month's consultancy work before becoming a Minister. He
suggests that this would have been disregarded, as being de
minimis, in 1990 and that, in any case, he resigned his appointment
within the four-week period allowed for the registration of a
new interest. In my view it is spurious to argue that an interest
acquired and relinquished within four weeks is non-registrable;
and the amount involved was far from negligible. I conclude that
it should have been registered."
Cumulatively this list
of omissions adds up to a casualness bordering on indifference
or contempt towards the rules of the House on disclosure of interests."
Amendment proposed, in line
9, at the end, to insert the words "We should however be
cautious in taking account of this in this context since Mr Hamilton
cannot be judged twice for the same offence."-(Mr Quentin
Davies.)
Question put, That the Amendment
be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 1
| Noes, 8
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Mr Peter Bottomley
|
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
|
| Mr Michael Foster
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
|
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Alan Williams
|
Another Amendment proposed,
to leave out lines 10 to 14 and insert the words "We failed
to examine Mr Hamilton on the issue of how frank he was in discussing
his relationship with Mr Greer in his conversation with Mr Heseltine,
and also in his separate conversation on the same subject with
the Cabinet Secretary and the Chief Whip. We are therefore not
in a position to reach a judgement on Mr Hamilton's conduct in
this matter."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)
Question put, That the Amendment
be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 2
| Noes, 8
|
| Mr Quentin Davies
| Mr Peter Bottomley
|
| Miss Ann Widdecombe
| Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
|
| Mr Michael Foster
|
| Mr Charles Kennedy
|
| Mr Tom Levitt
|
| Mr Terry Lewis
|
| Shona McIsaac
|
| Mr Alan Williams
|
Paragraph agreed to.
Paragraph 7 read, amended
and agreed to.
|