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Select Committee on Standards and Privileges Eighth Report


MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
RELATING TO THE REPORT


Tuesday 28 October 1997

Members present:

Mr Robert Sheldon, in the Chair

Mr Peter Bottomley Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Terry Lewis
Mr Quentin Davies Shona McIsaac
Mr Michael Foster (Hastings & Rye) Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Charles Kennedy Mr Alan Williams (Swansea West)

  The Committee deliberated.

  Motion made, and Question put, That the Committee, having heard Mr Hamilton's statement, will take no further evidence and will consider the terms of its report to the House.-(Mr Peter Bottomley.)

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 6 Noes, 2
Mr Peter Bottomley Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Michael Foster Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac

  The Committee further deliberated.

  [Adjourned till Tuesday 4 November at half-past Ten o'clock.


Tuesday 4 November 1997

Members present:

Mr Robert Sheldon, in the Chair

Mr Peter Bottomley Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Terry Lewis
Mr Quentin Davies Shona McIsaac
Mr Michael Foster (Hastings & Rye) Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Charles Kennedy Mr Alan Williams (Swansea West)

  The Committee deliberated.

  Draft Report [Complaints from Mr Mohamed Al Fayed, The Guardian and others against 25 Members and former Members: Second Further Report: Mr Neil Hamilton], proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.

  Ordered, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.

  Paragraph 1 read, as follows:

    "On 3 July 1997 the Committee published its First Report, together with the report of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards on allegations made against twenty-five Members and former Members. On 1 August we published our Seventh Report containing our findings on twenty-four of those Members and former Members. We have now completed our proceedings in respect of Mr Neil Hamilton."

  Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out from the second word "Members" to the end of the paragraph and insert the words "We have not carried through the second stage of the procedure foreseen in the Nolan Report and the First Report of the Select Committee on Standards in Public Life and are therefore not in a position to reach any conclusions."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

  Question put, That the Amendment be made.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2 Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the Report.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 9 Noes, 1
Mr Peter Bottomley Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Alan Williams

  Paragraph 2 read, as follows:

    "In our First Report we drew attention to the right of those Members criticised to submit a written statement to the Committee rebutting or challenging any findings of the Commissioner. Mr Hamilton's submission has already been published. We asked the Commissioner to provide us with briefing on the main points raised by Mr Hamilton. A written summary of the Commissioner's comments is appended. Mr Hamilton made an oral statement to the Committee on 14 October 1997, the text of which is published together with this Report. Also appended are representations from Mr Al Fayed's solicitors and from The Guardian seeking, on behalf of witnesses, a comparable right of reply to Mr Hamilton's statement. After careful consideration the Committee decided by a majority that these replies would not be necessary to enable it to reach its conclusions."

  Amendment proposed, in line 9, to leave out the word "careful" and insert the word "inadequate".-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

  Question put, That the Amendment be made.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2 Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

    Another Amendment proposed, in line 9, to leave out the words "decided by a majority" and insert the word "concluded".-(Mr Peter Bottomley.)

  Question put, That the Amendment be made.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 8 Noes, 2
Mr Peter Bottomley Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Question put, That the paragraph, as amended, stand part of the Report.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 8 Noes, 2
Mr Peter Bottomley Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Miss Ann Widdecombe
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Paragraph 3 read, as follows:

    "The procedures used by the Commissioner and the reasons for their adoption are published in the Committee's First Report. In his submission Mr Hamilton made a number of objections to the manner in which the Commissioner's inquiry had been conducted. We do not find Mr Hamilton's objections valid in terms of our remit from the House. We accept the Commissioner's description of the approach he adopted:

    "This was a parliamentary inquiry and there was no attempt to replicate the procedures of a court action. The proposed procedures were shown in advance to the previous Select Committee and to complainees. The approach was inquisitorial, not adversarial. Its sole purpose was to arrive at the truth, not to achieve a "conviction"."."

  Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out from the word "We" to the end of the paragraph and insert the words "are unfortunately as a result of our own decisions not in a position to sustain or to reject Mr Hamilton's objections."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

  Question put, That the Amendment be made.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 1 Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies Mr Peter Bottomley
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the Report.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 8 Noes, 1
Mr Peter Bottomley Mr Quentin Davies
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Paragraph 4 read and agreed to.

  Paragraph 5 read, as follows:

    "We have carefully examined Mr Hamilton's representations. Essentially, these repeat the evidence he gave to the Commissioner for Standards. We do not consider that Mr Hamilton has brought forward material new evidence."

  Amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out from the word "have" to the end of the paragraph and insert the words "not begun seriously to examine Mr Hamilton's representations. It is quite without precedent or justification that questions to Mr Hamilton should have been disallowed, and no contrary witnesses called. As a result, we are quite unable to make any progress on the key issue as to whether or not cash changed hands between Mr Al Fayed and Mr Hamilton."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

  Question put, That the Amendment be made.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2 Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Another Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out from the word "Standards" to the end of the paragraph.-(Miss Ann Widdecombe.)

  Question put, That the Amendment be made.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2 Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Amendment made.

  Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

  Paragraph 6 read, as follows:

    "Our conclusions are as follows:

    (i)    When it investigated a complaint against Mr Hamilton's failure to register his stay at the Ritz Hotel in Paris in the previous Parliament, the Select Committee on Members' Interests did not elicit the detailed evidence on Mr Hamilton's relationship with Mr Al Fayed and the campaign managed by Ian Greer Associates which the Commissioner's inquiry has now established. The relationship was essentially a business relationship in which Mr Hamilton advocated Mr Al Fayed's cause. He received material benefits. The visit should have been registered and Mr Hamilton must have known that it should have been.

    (ii)    We examined the evidence relating to the information which Mr Hamilton gave to the then President of the Board of Trade, Mr Heseltine. Mr Hamilton never gave away more information about his relationship with Mr Greer than he had to. The Commissioner's finding that Mr Heseltine was "deliberately misled" appears to us to be justified.

    (iii)  We accept the Commissioner's findings on Mr Hamilton's failures to declare his interests when dealing with Ministers and officials.

    (iv)  We recognise the force of the Commissioner's criticism of Mr Hamilton's acceptance of a commission payment for introducing a constituent to Mr Greer as well as a consultancy fee for representing that constituent's interests. Such actions do not appear to us to be contrary to the present rules of the House. We do not agree with the Commissioner's interpretation of the rules in this instance. We noted in our Seventh Report that we consider it to be inappropriate for a Member to receive a fee for introducing a constituency company to another company or organisation.

    (v)    The Commissioner found a variety of occasions, most of which are now admitted by Mr Hamilton, when he failed to register his interests. We draw attention to paragraph 813 of the Commissioner's report-

        "In addition to the stay at the Ritz (dealt with earlier) the main allegations against Mr Hamilton under this heading [alleged non-registration of interests] are considered below:

        (i)  In 1989 Mr and Mrs Hamilton spent a few days as guests of Mr Al Fayed on the estate of Balnagown Castle. This was clearly a benefit of substantial value and should, in my view, have been registered. Mr Hamilton regarded it as "private hospitality": but this is a concept not recognised by the Register and, given the lobbying he was conducting at the time on Mr Al Fayed's behalf, the benefit could certainly have been thought to affect his conduct as a Member.

        (ii)  Mr Hamilton acknowledged receiving two Harrods hampers - one in 1988 and one in 1989. By today's standards these would be registrable, but I am inclined to think that this may not have been the accepted position at the time.

        (iii)  Unlike most, if not all, other lobbyists, IGA regularly paid commissions to Members who introduced new business. In 1987/88 Mr Hamilton received an introduction commission of £4,000 and a consultancy fee of £7,500 in relation to the National Nuclear Corporation. He registered the latter but not the former, on the grounds that the introduction payment was ex gratia and unexpected. In my view there is no doubt that the introduction commission should have been registered since it might have been thought to affect Mr Hamilton's conduct as a Member. This was also the view of the Select Committee on Members' Interests at the time and, although the Committee recognised that the categorisation of the Register was unsatisfactory, they did not see this as a justification for a failure to register such payments.

        (iv)  In 1989 Mr Hamilton received an introduction fee from IGA of £6,000, which had been agreed in 1988, in respect of US Tobacco (UST). Since this was his second such fee, it could no longer be argued that it was wholly unexpected. It should, in my judgement have been registered during 1989 and, in any event, in January 1990 after the Registrar had specifically reminded Members at the end of 1989 of their obligation to declare single payments.

        (v)  Also in 1989 Mr Hamilton enjoyed a three night stay at a hotel in New York at the invitation of UST. This, I think, was a marginal case, since he was on Select Committee business and his accommodation would have been paid for anyway. Nevertheless, the benefit could still have been thought to affect his conduct as a Member and would have been better registered.

        (vi)  It has been suggested that the payment relating to UST was, in fact, a consultancy fee and not an introduction payment. The evidence to the inquiry of Mr Walter, the former UST executive was not conclusive on this point. But this is not an important distinction if, as is the case, the payment was registrable in either event.

        (vii)  In 1990 Mr Hamilton received £667 from Strategy Network International for a month's consultancy work before becoming a Minister. He suggests that this would have been disregarded, as being de minimis, in 1990 and that, in any case, he resigned his appointment within the four-week period allowed for the registration of a new interest. In my view it is spurious to argue that an interest acquired and relinquished within four weeks is non-registrable; and the amount involved was far from negligible. I conclude that it should have been registered."

    Cumulatively this list of omissions adds up to a casualness bordering on indifference or contempt towards the rules of the House on disclosure of interests."

  Amendment proposed, in line 9, at the end, to insert the words "We should however be cautious in taking account of this in this context since Mr Hamilton cannot be judged twice for the same offence."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

  Question put, That the Amendment be made.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 1 Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies Mr Peter Bottomley
Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Another Amendment proposed, to leave out lines 10 to 14 and insert the words "We failed to examine Mr Hamilton on the issue of how frank he was in discussing his relationship with Mr Greer in his conversation with Mr Heseltine, and also in his separate conversation on the same subject with the Cabinet Secretary and the Chief Whip. We are therefore not in a position to reach a judgement on Mr Hamilton's conduct in this matter."-(Mr Quentin Davies.)

  Question put, That the Amendment be made.

  The Committee divided.

Ayes, 2 Noes, 8
Mr Quentin Davies Mr Peter Bottomley
Miss Ann Widdecombe Mr Dale Campbell-Savours
Mr Michael Foster
Mr Charles Kennedy
Mr Tom Levitt
Mr Terry Lewis
Shona McIsaac
Mr Alan Williams

  Paragraph agreed to.

  Paragraph 7 read, amended and agreed to.


 
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Prepared 6 November 1997