TUESDAY 21 JULY 1998

DR ANDREW BROWN, DR ROBERT WOLTON and MS CHRISTINE REID

  170.  May I ask Dr Brown and his colleagues to come up to the front table and welcome you to the last of our three sessions this afternoon. May I ask you to identify yourself and your colleagues.
  (Dr Brown)  Thank you. My name is Dr Andrew Brown. I am one of the directors in English Nature. On my right is Christine Reid, who is one of our specialist advisers in our Lowlands team, was responsible for preparing in our written evidence to the Committee inquiry. On my left is Dr Robert Wolton, who is the senior manager responsible for our Devon office, and who has been very involved in hedgerow work for quite a number of years.

Chairman:  Thank you very much. Louise Ellman.

  171.  How does English Nature assess that a field boundary has wildlife value?
  (Dr Brown)  There are three broad aspects that we would look at. The first is the overall species composition of the boundary. Does it have any rare or rapidly declining species? Is it particularly rich in species? Second, we would look at the overall structure of the field boundary. Is it simple hedgerow or is it a hedgerow, with perhaps a hedgerow bank or a ditch associated with it? Does it have tall emergent old trees associated with it? If the structure is complex, the wildlife value is much greater. Thirdly, is it linked to other wildlife habitats, semi-natural habitats, maybe an area of grassland, woodlands, ponds and so on? If so, then again its wildlife value is higher.

  172.  Do you find that any of the positions you take on these things are controversial?
  (Dr Brown)  I have not come across any great controversy in our approach to the protection and management of field boundaries.

  173.  The National Hedge-laying Society believes that the survival of birds is not related to hedgerows. Is that in conflict with the position you might take?
  (Dr Brown)  I think it is a rather generalised and inaccurate statement. Clearly there are some species, some species of farmland birds, which are very dependent on well managed hedgerows. Similarly, there are other species which are not dependent on well managed hedgerows.

  174.  Will the targets for boundaries in the Biodiversity Plan be reached?
  (Dr Brown)  The targets in the Biodiversity Action Plan are long-term targets. They are going to require a whole series of changes: some policy changes and improvements to the regulations; a concerted effort on the part of many organisations to bring about greater understanding and awareness of the importance of these features in the countryside; and to secure the right kind of management of them. However, perhaps Robert Wolton would like to add something on that.
  (Dr Wolton)  Yes, indeed. There are three targets, as you know. The first one is the prevention of further loss of hedgerows through grubbing up. At the moment the regulations only allow protection for about 20 per cent of all our hedges, but we recognise that perhaps 40 per cent of our hedges are species rich or ancient. So there is still 20 per cent which are very much at risk there. The second target relates to the management of hedgerows: 25 per cent under favourable management by 2000, 15[7] per cent by 2005. The problem here is that we do not have accurate base-line information on what the condition of our hedgerows are, at the moment, but the best guess is perhaps that only 10 per cent of them are under favourable management. So it seems extremely unlikely that without considerably more encouragement, including financial incentives, that this second target will be met. The third one relates to hedgerow trees. Again, a general pattern across the country is that hedgerow trees—I am talking about isolated hedgerow trees—are in decline. Of course, many of the problems with hedgerows is neglect. That is the major problem. If they are neglected they can turn into lines of trees, but with the target—I am sure the target in the Action Plan is really aimed at isolated trees every 50 metres or so along the hedge—under those conditions that sort of tree is without a doubt disappearing in the countryside.

  175.  Dr Brown, you said that you thought that if the regulations were changed this could be achieved. Do you believe that if there is a change we could achieve it, or do we need a change in the primary legislation to achieve it?
  (Dr Brown)  I do not think a change in the regulations alone would achieve it. It will be a wider package of measures. I am not a specialist on the review of the hedgerow legislation but my colleague might comment on whether it needs a change in primary legislation.
  (Dr Wolton)No, I think Christine can do that better.
  (Ms Reid)  I think within the existing regulations with some modification we could make them better and more effective.

  176.  I did not ask you that. I am sure you could make them better and more effective, but do we have to change the primary legislation really to make them effective?
  (Ms Reid)  I think there are some advantages in changing the primary legislation, for example, devolving decisions about what makes a hedgerow important to a more local level.

  177.  And that needs changes to the primary legislation?

(Ms Reid)  I am not certain that it requires a change in primary legislation.

  178.  If I can go back to the question which I was asking you, whether you thought the targets would be met, how realistic do you think it is to believe that they will met and what else would need to be done?
  (Dr Wolton)  I do not think the targets are inaccessibly high as they stand. I think it is a realistic goal to seek protection of all ancient and species rich hedgerows by the year 2005 because basically they are an irreplaceable asset. Again, the management targets of 25 per cent by the year 2000 and 15[8] per cent by the year 2005, those are targets which we should be definitely aiming at. This is because they are not very high targets, yet under the current rate of progress with the current level of promotion of the Action Plan they are not going to be met.

  179.  Who is responsible for meeting those targets?
  (Dr Wolton)  It is the responsibility of everybody involved in the Biodiversity Partnership, which is all government departments and agencies and the voluntary conservation sector and industry as well. But the lead department for the Action Plan is the Ministry of Agriculture.

  180.  Do you think they have sufficient powers and resources to monitor what is happening and to see that those targets are met?
  (Dr Wolton)  Certainly the Ministry are doing a lot through Countryside Stewardship agreements and through ESA agreements. However, they are still only touching the surface of the problem. Whether it comes to the Ministry or some other government department, certainly we need substantially more resources put into the whole process. It stretches not just to financial incentives to farmers but also to giving advice. It was estimated that in order to achieve the targets within the Steering Group report, that some £250,000 would be needed each year actually to further the advice given to farmers; yet, at the moment, that extra resource is not being made available at all.

  181.  Is it simply about resources or is it about powers to define what is required and to look at a range of activities needed?
  (Dr Wolton)  As far as the first target goes, yes, it is more legislative powers that are needed, strengthening the regulations or whatever. As far as the other targets go, no it is very much promotion incentives, advice, which are required.

  182.  Are you satisfied that we have the mechanisms in place to make the realisation of the targets?
  (Dr Wolton)  Not really, on either count. Neither for the regulations for the reasons I have said, where there is this 20 per cent gap; nor from the point of view of what collectively is being done to promote hedge-laying conservation. Putting it bluntly, sufficient resources are not being put into this subject.

  183.  You think it is resources more than powers and monitoring?
  (Dr Wolton)  Certainly, because the major cause of hedgerow loss, according to the research carried out by the Institute for Terrestrial Ecology, is neglect. They estimated that for a period between the 1980s and the early 1990s, that there was something like a 5 per cent loss of hedgerows occurring per annum, based on their extensive sample surveys. 3 per cent was roughly due to neglect, which is all about management costs. Only 2 per cent (or just under 2 per cent) related to the actual grubbing out of hedges.

  184.  I would like to turn now to the question of field boundaries which we have mentioned earlier in this evidence session. What is the reason for the deterioration of field boundaries? We have spoken about the issue of skills. Are there any other issues?
  (Dr Wolton)  You were thinking specifically about hedges or walls?

  185.  Hedges.
  (Dr Wolton)  The main reason is changes in agricultural practice. In the old days, of course, there was a huge labour force available on most farms and they could spend much of the winter carrying out hedge management. Now, of course, labour is very much more expensive and there are fewer labour units on each farm. The farmers involved do not have the resources to do the work. So that is the main reason for the decline of hedges. Another reason, of course, is that hedges are becoming increasingly redundant in the agricultural landscape. Their primary purpose was mainly for stock enclosure or perhaps for protection of either crops or shelter for stock. With the advent of wire fences and more indoor housing and that sort of thing those primary purposes are less important, so that is another reason why there is less incentive for farmers to look after their hedges.

  186.  We know that the drift from fertilisers and pesticides can cause harm. How can we protect the field margins and the buffer zones that we require?
  (Dr Wolton)  There are deflector shields being used to protect hedges when there is spraying. This is machinery used to deflect sprays, I understand, to ensure that they do not enter into the hedge basis. Perhaps the more practical method is to have some sort of margins round the fields. In particular, if it was an environmental condition of agricultural subsidies that there should be field margins of at least a metre wide, that would help to protect hedge bottoms.

  187.  Modifications to spraying equipment, things like that?
  (Dr Wolton)  Deflector shields would certainly help and are available.

  188.  How much of a problem is it with the Cornish hedges, ditches and dykes and other field boundaries, where they are clearly without regulations?
  (Dr Wolton)  If I can deal with the Cornish hedges. Certainly that is perceived to be a major problem in Cornwall, including by my colleagues in Cornwall. Although they do not have a line of trees and shrubs on top of these banks they nevertheless have a very good flora and associated fauna, insects, mammals, whatever may be living on the land. So in biodiversity terms they are important and we would wish to see them protected. If I can refer ditches and walls to my colleague.
  (Ms Reid)  I think as far as stone walls go, English Nature can see that they have landscape and historic value, but in terms of biodiversity they are significantly less important than many hedgerows; so on biodiversity grounds we would not necessarily wish to see them included in the Hedgerow Regulations, or any modification of these Regulations. Ditches: there are very great problems with defining what would make an important ditch. A lot of the very important ditches are already protected, for example within grazing marsh SSSIs areas, so I would not think including ditches would be that critical. But obviously including Cornish hedges and other types of hedgerow in the regulations would be important.

  189.  Yesterday we saw some appalling work on ditches which had been done by contractors, presumably with a JCB. That does not slander the company but they were really scooped out and almost all plant and vegetation had virtually gone from them. Do you not think that ditches ought to be covered by the regulations?
  (Ms Reid)  I do not think that the regulations would prevent that sort of thing happening. Currently they only deal with removal rather than management, so I do not think that ditch management would be easily covered without significant changes to the regulations.

  190.  You have mentioned modifying current regulations. What about simply incorporating the whole process into Town and Country Planning?
  (Dr Brown)  It is an interesting question and I do not think we have spent enough time looking at the possibilities of using the Town and Country Planning regulation. There are certainly some potential advantages because it is a well used, well known regulatory mechanism, and it allows you to take account of national guidelines but interpret them in a local situation. But the extent to which you can use the existing Town and Country Planning legislation without modification, or the extent to which you actually need to modify it in order to give the kind of protection required to field boundaries, we are not sure.

  191.  What about other regulations? We heard a very interesting discussion about the Flamborough case and the use of Inclosure Acts. Is that something you know about or are interested or favour?
  (Dr Wolton)  I definitely know about it. I do not think that was probably ever intended in the legislation back in the early 1800s or whatever.

  192.  Surely the legislation conferred the privilege of ownership of the farm on condition that you maintained the ditches and the walls round it? Surely if you do not do that for ever, you should lose the land and we should all be able to have our little allotments on it?
  (Dr Wolton)  It is a very valid point. From our point of view it tends to be the pre-inclosure hedges which are very important. Generally the older hedges are better for wildlife. Of course, the pre-inclosure hedges would not be covered by the Inclosure Acts. Indeed, in Devon, where we reckon we have probably 20 per cent of the country's species rich hedgerows, many of the hedges are medieval, many of them are Anglo-Saxon, or even older than that, so they would not be protected through that mechanism.[9]

  193.  So where they are protected, would you be at all interested in looking at the legislation?
  (Dr Wolton)  It is worth exploring, yes.

  194.  What about education and training of land managers? We have heard previous evidence on the whole question of raising awareness of the importance of preserving hedgerows and walls. Who do you think should be responsible for this?
  (Dr Brown)  I think this is an extremely important area because there is a lot which can be done to encourage the right kind of management of these traditional field boundaries. I would expect the Ministry of Agriculture and its agencies, particularly FRCA, to be taking a lead role in this area. There is a lot that they can do through providing on-farm advice, training days for farmers, codes of good practice, improving the value of agricultural training courses providing incentives and so on. Beyond that there is quite a wide range of organisations who are also very active in the countryside, and a little bit more co-ordination amongst them would go quite a long way to improving the position overall on raising awareness, and ensuring that people have the understanding and the guidance to help them to look after these important features of the countryside.

  195.  What do you see as the role of cross-compliance in maintaining the traditional field boundaries?
  (Dr Wolton)  We do see it actually as a very big opportunity to secure greater protection and favourable management of hedgerows. We very much hope this is one of the things that will come out of the current review of CAP. In particular, there are three things we would like to see. One is that the retention of all hedges and boundary features should be an environmental condition to agriculture subsidies. The second is that they should be favourably managed. By that I am talking about the type of management that is needed more-or-less every year to prevent neglect; but I do accept that other management like laying hedges or coppicing or gapping up or banking, those are expensive operations and there should be financial incentive available to do them. As far as just normal trimming management, we consider that part of the duty of the care of the countryside and that could be an environmental condition. The third is actually, as I have referred to already, the maintenance of field margins. Basically there should be a metre margin around the edge of all fields which is not ploughed or intensively managed. The protection of hedgerow trees: all hedgerow isolated trees should be a further environmental condition.

  196.  These are all practical propositions?
  (Dr Wolton)  Yes, I think so. They do not involve extensive costs to the farmer involved and they are easy to achieve.

  197.  That is a bit unfair, is it not? The farmer who had the foresight to get rid of all his hedges in the 1960s and 1970s now gets his grant with no cross-compliance costs. The farmer who kept all his hedges or his walls has all this extra cost in order to get the same grant.
  (Dr Wolton)  I think that is a very fair point but it is one I cannot see a way round unfortunately.
  (Ms Reid)  I do think one option might be to include re-creation of field boundaries as a condition on farms where they have been lost.

  198.  So what would you do? You would say that if it was more than a certain size or a particular field you had to put a hedge back in?
  (Ms Reid)  Why not?

Chairman:  Why not! I agree, but we ask the questions. On that note, we need to draw the session to a close. May I thank you very much. Also, may I emphasise the fact that unfortunately members do have to be back in the House of Commons for a 7 o'clock vote, so we cannot hang around to talk for very long after this. We have to make tracks. May I thank everybody who gave evidence this afternoon, and again emphasise our thanks to the National Park team for taking us round and making the visit very useful. Thank you all very much indeed.

8   Witness correction: 50 per cent. Back

9   Note by witness: Nevertheless, over large parts of the English countryside enclosure hedges are the only important wildlife habitat, and are a critical refuge for our biodiversity. Back