WEDNESDAY 25 MARCH 1998

ANGELA EAGLE, MP and MR JOHN ROBERTS

  240.  A number of factors are taken into account before granting consent for the sale of a statutory site. One of those is waiting lists. Do you think that is an appropriate criterion?

  (Angela Eagle)  I think it has to have some relevance. Clearly if a local authority was attempting to dispose of a site and there was a large waiting list for allotment use, then that would be taken into account. It would certainly count against granting the disposal. So clearly that is one of a number of criteria that would be applied in the section 8 process. As I said earlier, one that we are now going to add is also whether the local authority has promoted the allotment sites in its area. I am worried—and I was worried when I looked at the evidence, Chairman, that you have been receiving here—that there was too much of a temptation for local authorities to hope that nobody noticed that the allotment sites were there. Perhaps they have been vandalised. Perhaps they had been neglected. Then they could just quietly dispose of the land. I want to make certain, in future disposals, that there has been positive promotion of the benefits of allotment gardening going on, as well as other criteria such as the land use, possible alternative plots, and whether there are objectors. You will see from the list that there have been no objections to the 47 disposals we have had since May. So it is a mix of all of those things in the usual way with planning issues.

  241.  At least one of the witnesses has expressed concerns about local authorities manipulating figures and you are talking about local authorities having to show that they have actively promoted allotments. Are you actually aware of any concrete evidence proving that local authorities have been, in effect, cooking the books in this way?

  (Angela Eagle)  We are watchful of that possibility when the assessments are done for Section 8 disposals. Clearly, we ask if a local authority allows plots on a site to become vacant, for example, whether there is a waiting list as part of our assessment prior to approving or not approving of the disposal. If people believe that a local authority is cooking the books, then we would want to know about it. I am aware of no cases where local authorities have been caught cooking the books.

  242.  Could you indicate any ways in which the government is considering changing its guidance in relation to the provision and disposal of allotments?

  (Angela Eagle)  I have announced one change which I hope will provide an extra protection because, in essence, it says to local authorities, "We are going to be looking at whether you have been actively promoting your allotment sites", and we are taking that into account to try to minimise the suspicion or the chance that a local authority may have its eye on allotment land that it wants, say, to build on. It allows it to go to rack and ruin; it tells nobody that the plots are there and it then tries to sell it on. If in future disposals we introduce a criterion at Government Office to look at how local authorities have been promoting their allotments, we hope that this will get over this suspicion and this temptation perhaps that local authorities might have to dispose of their allotment land.

  243.  Are there any other areas you have identified at this stage where you might like to see changes?

  (Angela Eagle)  If we were talking completely sensibly, it would clearly make sense to have a look at the whole of allotment legislation. It is very old. It is over-prescriptive in some areas and under-prescriptive in others. It is spread across dozens of different statutes, but I doubt very much that there will be time in the legislative programme that we have before us to look at allotments and perhaps have a more modernised system. I also have to say that if anyone was designing allotment legislation these days I doubt whether they would put in an active statutory duty for allotments to be provided if there is a demand. It is a very, very significant legislative protection for allotments as a leisure activity and, as I said earlier, it is more positive and more prescriptive than the provision of any other leisure activity I can think of. It is very strongly protected.

  244.  You have made a number of references to the importance of local authorities having a local Agenda 21. Do you see that process in itself resolving conflicts to do with land use?

  (Angela Eagle)  Land use goes wider than just allotment provision. We are looking at how we could change planning regulations to help achieve a wide range of the new government aims, but I think more positively, with respect to a local Agenda 21, it gives local authorities another good chance to start promoting the benefits of allotment gardening more positively to their citizens and I hope that they will do that.

  245.  A local Agenda 21 also brings together a wide range of organisations to talk about immediate issues and future planning. Do you see any stronger role for your Department in assisting that planning process?

  (Angela Eagle)  At local level?

  246.  Yes, in relation to allotments at local level.

  (Angela Eagle)  As I said before, I think that allotment gardening has a positive role to play in local sustainability plans. Other than continuing to issue consultation documents, have consultation procedures about sustainable development and talk about best practice, I do not see that the national Government has a direct role.

  247.  On that point and thinking about local authorities' roles, would you welcome and would you want to encourage a greater shift towards local self-management of sites—i.e., management of sites by the allotment holders themselves?

  (Angela Eagle)  I think that can be very positive and I think that actually gets over some of the suspicions about local authorities deliberately wanting to run down sites. Self-management at that very local level is almost always a good idea. There are some legal issues about who is responsible that can be resolved and have been resolved in creative ways with some local management committees. There is absolutely no reason why that should not be done.

  248.  A problem of UDI by allotment holders, is it?

  (Angela Eagle)  There is nothing wrong with self-management. I think it creates perhaps less suspicion and more security for the future so that people can begin to plan and build in an area without worrying about disposals. The existing state of the law means that there are significant statutory protections for land that is being used in that way from arbitrary treatment.

  249.  You do not see that, if you have self-management, then there is vetting as to whether people are suitable allotment holders? How many weeds should you have on your patch before you are ejected?

  (Angela Eagle)  If there is self-management, it has to be done in a structure that is fair to all, not in an elitist way: we do not want somebody on the allotments who we do not want to talk to or who is from the wrong side of the tracks. I would assume that any local authority that wanted to allow self-management to happen would ensure, within the structures that were set up to do that, that degree of fairness because there is still a statutory right for people to have access to allotment land.

  250.  On the question of planning and some of the guidelines that have been issued by the Department in the past, as I understand it, there have been issued in the past guidelines to suggest suitable uses for land under electricity pylons. One of those uses is to designate that land for the use of allotments. Do you believe that to be a sensible situation?

  (Angela Eagle)  It depends where the land is.

  251.  But it does not matter what the land is like. If there are pylons in the vicinity, do you think it is sensible to be having that land designated for allotments?

  (Angela Eagle)  My understanding of the legislation is it has to be usable and reasonable land. It cannot just be any old bit of stony ground that they have come across. If you are alluding to possible safety problems with pylons, speaking as Health and Safety Minister now, there is not positive proof of problems with electrocurrents and health problems with electrocurrents either way. That argument is still being had.

  252.  But there is worry, is there not?

  (Angela Eagle)  I think there are worries. There is no doubt that there are worries, but they are not worries that have been scientifically resolved one way or the other. I think it would be preferable, if I were an allotment gardener, to be in a plot that did not have a pylon in it.

  253.  Is there some scope then, would you say, for the guidelines to be changed as far as designating land under pylons for allotments?

  (Angela Eagle)  We are not aware that it is a problem. We have not been contacted by people who say it is a problem and we would certainly look at it if we were.

  254.  How can the future for allotments be made secure within the Government's initiatives to modernise local government?

  (Angela Eagle)  Statutorily, the future is secure as far as provision of land. I think that the issue now is promotion of allotments. As I have said earlier, within overall Government guidelines on issues like health and sustainability, we do believe that that is an issue for local authorities to pursue, as part of their own sustainable development strategies, perhaps their own local health strategies. There is plenty of statutory protection for existing allotment land if it is threatened by any planning development.

  255.  Can the Department's idea of best practice be applied to allotment provision?

  (Angela Eagle)  There is no reason at all why that should not be the case. If you are hinting at performance targets or performance indicators, I have to say that the idea of performance indicators is being looked at but almost everybody wants a performance indicator and there is potential for thousands of them, so we have to get the balance right between asking local authorities to measure their performance against a series of indicators and having thousands of indicators for them to measure their performance against.

  256.  How important does the Department think allotments are?

  (Angela Eagle)  We think that they are an important part of leisure provision for health. As I said in my statement at the beginning, in some areas they are clearly more popular and important than they are in others. In some areas there are large numbers of vacancies; in other areas, as Mr Cummings said earlier, there is keen take-up of allotments. Within the broad, general, positive aspects of allotment gardening that we all agree about, it is for local authorities to decide the best balance of provision between that kind of leisure and other kinds of leisure.

  257.  Do allotments have an important role in community development?

  (Angela Eagle)  Clearly they can. Certainly in areas where perhaps there has been a high level of unemployment or where there are perhaps a lot of people with low incomes, it helps to be able to provide good, wholesome food and leisure in all kinds of ways. I believe that the potential for community involvement in allotments is very great and is scarcely tapped.

  258.  Do you think that current planning guidance takes account of that role?

  (Angela Eagle)  We do not believe there should be a separate PPG on just allotments, if that is what you are asking. We do believe that they come under PPG17, I think it is, which is to do with leisure provision at local authority level. I do not see a need for having a separate PPG simply on allotments.

  259.  Minister, on the point you made about responsibility lying with local authorities to promote allotment sites and other initiatives arising out of the use of allotments, that is all well and good if we all truly believe that local councils wish to actively promote allotments, but I have the impression that allotments are there to be tolerated; that they are the Cinderella of the leisure service and that, whilst we could all point to many positive aspects whereby they can contribute towards healthier living, I truly believe that from the centre we need an initiative and a direction to compel local authorities to look more favourably upon the use and provision of allotment sites.

  (Angela Eagle)  This government was elected to decentralise power. There is already a great deal of statutory protection of allotments, more than in any other leisure activity, a series of legislations that make it virtually compulsory for local authorities to provide allotments. I do not believe that we should compel local authorities to do more than the already very strong statutory duties they have under law. I think that there is a role, more positively, for more active promotion, more creative use of allotment land and perhaps we should look to see whether best practice could be spread so that we can begin to spread ideas about the potential of allotments which have, I suppose, got a bit of an old fashioned kind of image that could well do with updating. I do not think there is anything wrong with that, but I do not think it is right for the national government to attempt to compel local authorities.