TUESDAY 24 FEBRUARY 1998

MR GRAHAM CLARKE and MR ADRIAN BISHOP

  187.  Gentlemen, can I apologise that we are running late but I think you will agree that we have had some useful sessions this morning. Could I ask you to identify yourselves for the record.

  (Mr Clarke)  Good morning. My name is Graham Clarke and I am the Editor of Amateur Gardening Magazine, a magazine that has a 114 year heritage and is possibly the oldest gardening magazine in the world.

Normally we write about such things as sowing grass seed and planting rhododendrons and it is only in the last year that we have adopted allotments as our pet campaign. We launched a campaign, Allotments 2000, in January 1997. In that year I think you could probably say we have had a crash course in what allotment life is all about. Most of our readers have either gardened on or still do garden on allotments and we have 50,000 buyers a week. Across the whole gardening magazine market there are about million gardening purchases a month—

  188.  I would like to say it is also widely read in the Library of the House of Commons, if that is of any comfort to you!

  (Mr Clarke)  I am very pleased to hear it.

  189.  Do you agree that there is a huge latent demand for allotments amongst the general public?

  (Mr Clarke)  Yes I do and I think it is a great shame that allotment awareness is not more widely spread, which is why we launched the campaign really.

There is a lot of latent demand. As a key magazine in the field we have a lot of correspondence, perhaps 20 letters a week from people a) congratulating us on the campaign and secondly, they are saying they would like allotments but they are deterred from taking them up. In many cases they live in areas where there are waiting lists so it is impossible for them to take them up but for those who could take up the allotments, where there are vacant sites, they are deterred for a number of reasons. Partly plots are too big—

  190.  We will be coming on to those specific issues later and maybe other Members might like to ask those questions. If we agree there is a huge latent demand—

  (Mr Clarke)  Yes.

  191.  That is absolutely key to the future of the people who want allotments and allotment sites themselves. One of the aims of Allotment 2000 was to ensure that all existing allotments were tended but sometimes we see vacant plots and people wonder why. Some people use that as an excuse for saying, "Well, where is the demand? " How, practically, could you achieve the aim of all existing plots being tended?

  (Mr Clarke)  I think what we are talking about is ways of increasing the pick up. And I think what we need to do is to get that across. I suppose as a magazine we are uniquely placed because we can talk to a much wider audience and what we need to say is that there are various options we should be promoting and let local authorities pick up and this might include such things as plot sharing and encouraging associations to police themselves more adequately in terms of security and encouraging children on to plots and that sort of thing. If we do not do this then plots will not be taken up and demand will not be increased.

  192.  How can we encourage more land to be dedicated to allotments? We have agreed there is a huge latent demand. Sometimes the perception would not support that statement. We agree there are many reasons for having that perception and that it is sometimes perhaps not the fault of the people who would like to be allotment holders. How do we encourage more land to be dedicated to allotments?

  (Mr Clarke)  It is not going to be easy and it is going to take a very very long time to convince local authorities that more provision has to be provided. I think what we need to do is be more consistent in our campaign and to talk to such people as the LGA. In fact, I was rather hoping to talk to them today but they left soon after they gave evidence. I am in the process of writing to them following last week's inquiry, but I could see immediately that it was through bodies such as theirs that we need to be working.

  193.  You could go off to the LGA and others. Do you have a role to play for that huge latent demand through your own media?

  (Mr Clarke)  Yes, I think we do. We have conducted various surveys over the last year with our readership with current allotment holders and non-allotment holders who would like to have an allotment. We have all those statistics to hand. We are uniquely placed to be passionate about allotments but to look at it more widely. I have worded a letter I was going to give to the LGA today to propose that we meet up with them and debate the future together so that both allotment holders and local authorities are winners in this.

  194.  As you clearly described in terms of accountability maybe the local authorities would be more ready to listen and not just take expert opinion but see that the demand was real. Do you think a relaxation of some of the restrictions on allotments' use would help with take up?

  (Mr Clarke)  Yes it would. At the moment there are a great many sites across the country of course that will only permit the growing of produce, fruit and vegetables ostensibly, and we feel very strongly as a gardening magazine of course that it is not just fruit and vegetables that we promote the growing of and those allotment plots should be more widely used as gardens. In the very intensive housing we are going to see the open air lungs of the urban sprawl are certainly going to be more widely sought than just for growing fruit and vegetables which is going to discourage people from taking up allotments.

  195.  From your readership do you pick up any idea that joint tenancies would be a favoured option by people who would like to garden on allotments?

  (Mr Clarke)  Yes, plot sharing is something people would very much like to get involved with but if you are not involved in the mechanism of the allotment movement your only course of action is to apply to the local authority to get a plot. It is not very easy to work out how you can have one half the size of the one you are offered. Plot sharing as an entity is something we would actually recommend.

  (Mr Bishop)  From a survey of readers 45 per cent said they had a plot seven rods or more. In real terms that is 100 feet. Of the non-allotment holders 40 per cent of them would be more inclined to take up one if the plots were smaller. It is about being flexible about the size of plot you have got. The demand increases because of that, especially today with the trend for smaller gardens.

  196.  Do you think that allotment holders understand the terms "statutory" and "temporary"?

  (Mr Clarke)  We had a survey—and who has not had a survey—and we did actually ask that very question. I can give you a very specific answer. In a survey of allotment holders we asked them did they understand the terms "statutory" and "temporary" and 66 per cent of them said they did not understand.

Two-thirds said they did not understand and I think that is quite telling because these are people who are very active in the movement. They enjoy the plots for what they are, they go out there for fresh air and gardening and sociability, but they do not understand what the future is for their sites.

  197.  What about the third your survey said did understand?

  (Mr Clarke)  Yes, they understood what the "statutory" and "temporary" labels meant.

  198.  What about local authorities, do you think they understand?

  (Mr Clarke)  I cannot speak for the local authorities necessarily but I think there is a lot of confusion certainly.

  (Mr Bishop)  The evidence given last week by the Blackpool allotment holders clearly showed a problem there and we would welcome a simplification of the system so that people could more easily understand what is going on.

  199.  Do you go on the evidence you have gathered that local authorities act fairly or unfairly?

  (Mr Bishop)  In that area?

  200.  In that area.

  (Mr Bishop)  We are coming back to the problem of allotment holders being laymen and the odds are stacked against them to start with and certainly in terms of the time and commitment going into what can be a long-running case is very difficult for allotment holders. It is a lot easier for councils to argue, they are full time, they are professional, they have got the resources to do that.

  201.  Have you any evidence of manipulation by local authorities as far as the sale of allotment sites is concerned? Have you got any evidence to the effect of any of that?

  (Mr Bishop)  I think many allotment holders that write to us point to problems they have had with individual local authorities and obviously we would say that many local authorities such as Bristol are doing a great job but clearly there are pockets of local authorities that are not doing a good job. I think we have heard evidence previously, we have had people write to us saying that councils are not particularly helpful in being positive about people's allotments, advertising, being proactive about them, then of course the odds are stacked against the allotment holders. So rather than the local authorities being active, maybe not being active presents a problem in itself.

  202.  Do you think they manipulate?

  (Mr Bishop)  Undoubtedly we think one or two probably do. We think the demand for land is increasing and local authorities are in a very difficult position and it must be tempting for them to look at allotment land. That is one of the reasons we want protection for allotment lands.

  203.  Is there adequate provision for decisions over allotment land to be challenged by allotment holders?

  (Mr Clarke)  No, I do not think there is. I think allotment holders should be brought in at a much earlier stage when it comes to any decisions that are being made, any discussions taking place on the future of their own sites. All too frequently what happens is that the plot holders are presented with a fait accompli and really that is not acceptable in this day and age.

Ten per cent of local authorities, I am told, have customer care policies. Only ten per cent which means that the remaining 90 per cent just do what they want and then tell the plot holders what they have done basically. That may be just a generalisation but I think the trend is certainly that there is not enough discussion taking place at an early stage.

  204.  What do you see as a possibility for this Committee in terms of recommendations, in terms of protection for allotment holders against the local authorities? What would you see as being necessary?

  (Mr Clarke)  Obviously there is a number of options I would like to see come out of this inquiry.

At one end of the extreme I suppose there is a Private Members Bill or something of that nature which would look at changing the relevant acts so that there is greater protection but that takes Parliamentary time and we are all aware that that time is very precious. I think perhaps at the other end of the scale we are looking at a PPG amending the guidance and making sure that people are aware of what can happen in the planning guidelines. There are various options.

  205.  Mr Bishop, you just passed a piece of paper.

  (Mr Bishop)  It mentioned PPGs. I think one of the options we would have liked to put before you is the option of some kind of Ombudsman or watchdog to be introduced. Now the obvious difficulty with that is funding and that would have to be looked into very carefully. But if there was an individual who could be called upon to act as an arbiter between councils and allotment holders to bring them together to make decisions in difficult cases we would see that as a step forward.

  206.  Railtrack planned to evict some 1,200 allotment holders using the argument that it was too expensive to collect the rents. I understand negotiations took place between the National Society for Allotment Holders and Leisure Gardeners and those plans were put on the back burner or indeed halted forever, I am not quite clear. Does this recent experience with Railtrack make you more or less hopeful for the continuation of private sites?

  (Mr Bishop)  Again, private sites make up, as you know, 8 per cent of the total. So private sites are playing a minor part in all this but because of the pressure on land particularly with private sites the fact they do not have statutory protection brings an immediate problem and Railtrack is one of the examples where plot holders were given 12 months' notice. It was only really when there was an outcry in the gardening press and mainline press that the National Society stepped in to negotiate and this problem was sorted out. People in Bath had a similar problem where the Church of England wanted to sell land and they do not have any statutory protection. So we think that having private allotments is good; it is better than having none but not as good as having statutory sites.

  207.  As far as Railtrack is concerned, presumably they are not going to evict any of the existing allotment holders but there is no evidence they are going to be creating others?

  (Mr Clarke)  No, we have certainly not seen any evidence at all that they are going to increase the area given over to allotment sites.

  (Mr Bishop)  I think we would have a general concern in that area. It appears to us—and obviously we hear a lot bad cases—there is very little, if any, new allotment land being provided which must mean the total amount of allotment land is being eroded and we welcome any scheme to increase land given over to allotments.

  208.  Would you not accept given all the pressures on land in urban areas that a vigorous campaign by local authority to look for new sites that might be suitable for allotments but would not be suitable for other uses?

  (Mr Clarke)  Yes, I would endorse that completely.

That is one of the aspects of the discussions I am hoping to have with LGA very shortly and one of the things I want to raise with them.

  209.  What about management of sites, is that something that local authorities should do or something that should be handed over to a society?

  (Mr Clarke)  I think certainly the evidence that we have from discussions with our readers and with allotment groups shows that self-regulation is preferred. Local authority regulation and ownership of sites is very patchy. Some authorities obviously take great care and they have employed staff, allotment officers, who are there to mediate and there to talk to sites but many do not and so it is patchy and I think that the only way that they could be consistent in this is to suggest that more allotment sites form their own consortia and clubs and formulate constitutions, do the association thing properly, so that they can run their own sites in the optimum way. Most of sites we have spoken to which are the successful sites which have long waiting lists, which are very proactive, and which have plots being used in the optimum way, are self-regulatory.

  (Mr Bishop)  I have a couple of examples of that.

Down in Arundel in West Sussex the land there was basically waste land. The council looked at the land and said they were going to tidy the plots up. They offered land free to local residents if they made a good job of it. As a result that area has been opened up to the community and is well used. Residents are happy, the council is happy, there are health benefits, so everyone wins from that situation. The difficulty, of course, is that the society doing that has to be committed, it has to raise its own funds, and has to be well managed and look after itself.

Chairman:  On that note, can I thank you very much for your evidence.