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11 pm
Mr. Paul Murphy: The agreement referred to a consultative civic forum, and that is what it is. It is not an elected body, nor is it a rival to the Assembly, nor a second chamber. It is a civic forum, comprising, I should hope, people of a wide range of views, backgrounds and experiences in Northern Ireland. Some of those sectors--trade unionism, business and the voluntary sector--have been mentioned in the agreement, but other sectors may be included, as agreed by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and approved by the Assembly.
I believe that nothing but good can come of the forum. It is similar to the Economic and Social Council of the European Union. We have had inquiries from other parts of the country, including Wales, about how the forum might operate, but that is a matter for the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Members of the Assembly to determine. I am quite convinced that they will come up with the best ideas about how to form the body and what it should do. It will enhance, not replace, democracy in Northern Ireland.
Lords amendment agreed to.
Mr. Paul Murphy:
I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 111 to 122 and 381.
Mr. Murphy:
The amendments relate to the financial provisions contained in the Bill, and several reflect the undertaking I gave the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr. Davis), the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, to consider his proposals for expanding and improving the audit controls. I am indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for his thoughtful proposals, the bulk of which are now reflected in the Bill.
Amendments Nos. 110 to 117 are chiefly technical and drafting amendments, which clarify how the default provision will work. We introduced the provision to safeguard public services in the event of the Assembly's being unable to agree a budget or pass appropriation measures. Amendment No. 110 makes it clear that the default mechanism will begin to operate if the Assembly cannot agree on expenditure for the forthcoming financial year by three working days before the end of the current financial year. Amendments Nos. 114 and 116 clarify the upper limits on expenditure once the default mechanism has come into play: 75 per cent. of the previous year's total for expenditure on account, and 95 per cent. of the previous year's expenditure for a whole year in default of an appropriation measure.
The principal changes to the audit arrangements are in amendment No. 118, which sets out the basic audit provisions that all future Northern Ireland legislation is required to continue in operation. It is not possible for practical reasons to entrench existing audit legislation: the Assembly must be able to amend it from time to time because, for instance, Treasury requirements may change. In addition, it has been a transferred matter since 1921, and there is no justification for going against the Belfast agreement and reserving it now.
Nevertheless, the Assembly will be responsible for large amounts of public money, for which it must be fully and publicly accountable. It should not be free to abolish audit controls or so to dilute them that they become ineffective. I have to say that I have no fear at present
that the Assembly will do any such thing, but the Scotland Bill constrains the Scottish Parliament from abolishing its controls, and a similar provision is justified for this Bill.
Amendment No. 118 will require future Northern Ireland legislation to provide, among other things, for proper accounts to be prepared in respect of payments in and out of the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund, for accounting officers to be designated in Northern Ireland Departments, and for accounts to be audited, certified, published and laid before the Assembly. It will also require the Assembly to establish the equivalent of the Public Accounts Committee in the House of Commons, with similar duties, and it will establish the independence of anyone other than the Comptroller and Auditor-General who is charged with the audit function, because a proportion of audit work is put out to private firms.
Amendment No. 119 will buttress the independence of the Comptroller and Auditor-General himself, and will prevent the Assembly from making a recommendation to the Queen for his removal from office, unless there is a vote in favour of so doing supported by two thirds of the total number of Assembly Members entitled to vote. Amendment No. 121 will ensure that the Assembly cannot manipulate him by reducing his salary. Amendment No. 122 will protect the independence of the Northern Ireland Audit Office by the establishment of a special Assembly Committee to examine its expenses, as the Public Accounts Commission does for the National Audit Office here.
Taken together, this package will ensure the integrity of the audit controls over public expenditure in Northern Ireland in the years to come. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden for drawing to my attention the desirability of replicating the Scotland Bill model as far as possible, and I commend the amendments to the House.
Lords amendment agreed to.
Lords amendments Nos. 111 to 122 agreed to.
Mr. Paul Murphy:
I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 124 and 125, amendment (a) thereto and Lords amendments Nos. 126 to 136 and 277 to 280.
I must inform the House that Lords amendments Nos. 277 and 278 involve privilege.
Mr. Murphy:
The Government received extensive representations on the Floor of the House and during the
A powerful case was made for an extension of the Human Rights Commission's functions and powers beyond what is currently provided for in the Bill. We have not closed our minds on that, and we therefore introduced amendment No. 123 to require the commission, no later than two years after its establishment, to review the adequacy of its powers.
Amendments Nos. 124 and 132 go together. Amendment No. 124 makes clear on the face of the Bill the ability of the Human Rights Commission to bring proceedings involving law or practice relating to the protection of human rights, but amendment No. 132 ensures that this provision does not override the need for a "victim" under the Human Rights Act 1998. In exercising its various functions as laid down in the clause, we would expect that a normal part of the way the commission operates will be to carry out investigations. Amendment No. 125 provides for that.
As my colleague Lord Williams of Mostyn explained in the other place, the Government will co-operate fully with any investigation undertaken by the commission. We shall provide it with any information and documents necessary to such an investigation, subject only to adequate arrangements being made to protect information where confidentiality is required, and to safeguard national security, public safety and public order.
Amendment No. 126 widens the ambit of clause 55 so that the commission will be able to assist persons in any proceedings which, in the view of the commission, involve either the law or practice relating to protection of human rights. Amendments Nos. 127 to 131 are technical improvements, which ensure that the Bill will allow the commission to assist "persons" rather than individuals, and that will allow the commission to assist incorporated bodies as well as individual people.
I have already mentioned amendment No. 132. Amendments Nos. 133 to 135 are technical amendments, which ensure that the Human Rights Commission can bring proceedings in cases involving non-European convention on human rights issues. Amendment No. 136 provides that the Advocate-General for Scotland is exempt from restrictions, as well as the other Law Officers listed.
There are four amendments to schedule 8. Amendments Nos. 277 and 278 are technical, and will make it possible for employment by the commission to fall withinthe terms of a superannuation scheme under the Superannuation Act 1972. Amendments Nos. 279 and 280 are simple drafting amendments that improve the consistency and comprehensiveness of the schedule.
There are also some issues relating to the Human Rights Commission on which we did not introduce amendments, but on which we believe that we should take the opportunity to clarify our position. We have been asked about the role of the commission as amicus curiae. Courts will be free to ask the commission to provide assistance as amicus under the normal rules that apply. However, that is not a matter for the Bill, but for the court in individual cases.
Lords amendment: No. 110, in page 23, line 15, after ("to") insert ("section 46 and to")
Lords amendment: No. 123, in page 26, line 3, at end insert--
("( ) The Commission shall, before the end of the period of two years beginning with the commencement of this section, make to the Secretary of State such recommendations as it thinks fit for improving--
(a) its effectiveness;
(b) the adequacy and effectiveness of the functions conferred on it by this Part; and
(c) the adequacy and effectiveness of the provisions of this Part relating to it.")
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