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Mr. Paul Murphy: This has been a very useful debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) was right to emphasise the importance that the agreement and the Bill attach to human rights. However, the agreement and the Bill were both time restrained, so there were gaps in the final talks. Both the agreement and the Bill are silent on some areas, as there was insufficient time to do everything as well as we could expect. That is why, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady), consultation with the parties is so important. In a sense, it is a continuation of the talks. We must get the balance right between the parties' views, and then Parliament will make the final decision. The Bill is a Bill of the British Parliament, but it must reflect the spirit and words of the agreement.
We were able to put much more detail in the Bill on strand 1 than on the commission, because the detail on that has simply not been worked out yet. Everyone
involved in the talks was conscious of the spirit, which is why it is so important to be able to consult the parties during August and September.
The agreement says that members of the commission should consider
Government amendment No. 181 will enable the commission to make occasional visits overseas, if it considers that necessary to promote human rights in Northern Ireland, but it will properly prevent it from taking up cases of human rights abuses that have nothing to do with Northern Ireland. Amendment No. 182 is consequential upon it.
The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik) said that he supports amendment No. 189, as do the Government. We accept the amendment, as it would be useful to make it clear in the Bill that the commission can publish its advice and the outcome of its investigations.
Mr. Corbyn:
As the amendment says "may publish", does that mean that the commission itself will decide whether to publish its findings, or will that decision be taken by someone else?
Mr. Murphy:
The principle behind the wording of the amendment is that there should be publication. For the detail, I suggest that my hon. Friend refer to those who tabled it, but the Government agree with the wording and believe that the commission's ability to publish is an extremely good idea. The amendment, which we accept, does not say whether publication should be compulsory, but perhaps we can consider that in future.
Mr. William Ross:
Having gone two or three steps of the way, could not the Government go the rest of the way, and also publish the evidence on which the commission bases its decisions and advice?
Mr. Murphy:
As I said, there is to be a memorandum of understanding between the commission and the Government on various issues. Practice will tell whether evidence should be published. Generally, of course, evidence is published in such circumstances, and I see no reason, on the face of it, why that should not be the case,
The Government are also prepared to accept amendment No. 190, under which the Bill will say:
The charter rights are mentioned in the agreement, and that point is covered in clause 55(7), which says:
I cannot be so generous on amendment No. 191. We believe that the clause as it stands covers everything that is necessary.
I do not think that we would benefit by accepting amendment No. 44, which could restrict the commission's activities. The term "human rights" is deliberately not strictly defined in the Bill, to give the commission the greatest possible freedom to determine for itself the standards of human rights protection against which laws and practices should be judged.
We obviously want to monitor very carefully the commission's functions and powers, but we have not yet finalised precisely what those powers are likely to be--that is a matter for consultation between the Government and all the parties in Northern Ireland--and we ought to wait until that is established before instituting a review as envisaged in amendment No. 177.
Mr. Corbyn:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said thus far, but his argument would not preclude a later discussion, after a year or whatever period is deemed appropriate, with the United Nations or other relevant organisations. We are a major signatory to the European convention on human rights, and as we are setting up a ground-breaking commission, it would surely be beneficial to both sides to consult the UN.
Mr. Murphy:
I am sure that there is indeed great benefit in consulting the United Nations, but at this stage in the legislative process it would be inappropriate to accept the amendment until we know exactly what the final powers are to be.
New clause 2 would give the commission significant additional powers. We cannot accept it at this stage, but in forthcoming consultations we shall certainly consider some of the points that lie behind it. The same goes for new clause 3, which is perhaps the most significant new
clause or amendment in this group. It concerns the commission's powers to investigate, which is the matter on which we have had the greatest representation. That has spurred us on to ensure that there will be consultation over the summer. There are differences of view and we are not yet convinced that we have got it right. We must consult the parties in Northern Ireland and elsewhere.
For the convenience of the Committee I will again list the amendments that the Government are prepared to accept, which are Nos. 189 and 190 tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume). As I said, we intend to look further at many of the other points raised during this important debate and to consult parties in Northern Ireland, as well as representatives in the House.
Mr. McNamara:
I thank my hon. Friend for his comprehensive reply. However, clause 11, requires
Mr. Murphy:
Clause 55(3) states that the commission can comment on all Bills whether they are referred to it or not. My hon. Friend's amendment deals with the stage at which Bills would be referred to the commission.
Mr. McNamara:
I am not certain that clause 55 is as explicit as my amendment would be. It states:
I listened carefully to what my hon. Friend said about new clause 3. There is indeed great feeling about the need for the Human Rights Commission to have teeth. I must return to the Paris principles, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Slough Fiona Mactaggart--not only to the effect that failure to implement those principles would have in Northern Ireland but to the example that that would give to the rest of Europe.
I am surprised at my hon. Friend's reluctance with regard to new clause 2, which merely replicates a power that exists for all the other bodies concerned with human rights. If we are to have a commission for human rights it would seem strange if it did not have such a power, which will presumably be given to the Equality Commission. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for saying that he will look into that and I hope that he will do so carefully as it is an important power.
I am grateful for the progress that my hon. Friend has made in meeting our arguments so far and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: No. 181, in page 26, line 9, leave out 'in Northern Ireland'.
No. 182, in page 26, line 10, after 'rights', insert 'in Northern Ireland'.--[Mr. Paul Murphy.]
Amendments made: No. 189, in page 26, line 17, at end insert--
"draft legislation referred to them by the new Assembly".
Does that mean that all legislation has to be considered by the commission, or only those laws that the Assembly wants to refer, because they have a human rights impact? Of course, the commission must offer advice when specifically asked by the Assembly to do so, but the agreement is not totally clear on the point. Hon. Members can rest assured that clause 11 gives the opportunity for each and every Bill from the Assembly to go to the commission for consideration. That applies also to amendment No. 155.
"The Commission shall do all that they can to ensure"--
rather than "facilitate"--
the establishment of the committee referred to in paragraph 10".
That is a reference to the joint committee of the human rights commissions in Northern Ireland and in the Republic. We are grateful to those who tabled the amendment, as we think that it better reflects the spirit and intention of the agreement. It is not within our power to require that the Government of the Republic of Ireland establish their side of the joint committee; the most that we can do is to require by law that our commission does all that it can.
"The Commission shall do all they can"
to establish the committee referred to in the relevant part of the agreement. That naturally includes considering a possible charter of rights for the whole of Ireland.
"the Presiding Officer to send a copy of each Bill, as soon as reasonably practicable after introduction, to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission . . . enabling the Assembly to ask the Commission, where the Assembly thinks fit, to advise whether a Bill is compatible with human rights (including the Convention rights)."
The commission has such a power only if it is asked for its opinion. That is the distinction between my amendment and the clause and that is why I tabled my amendment. I trust that my hon. Friend will re-examine that point, which is significant. I am not asking that the commission be forced to comment on all legislation--only on legislation that it thinks significant or legislation referred to it for comment by the Assembly. My hon. Friend seems to be saying that the commission can comment on every Bill that is passed to it. If that could be put on the face of the Bill, it would clear up the ambiguity.
"The Commission shall advise the Secretary of State and the Executive Committee . . . of legislative and other measures which ought to be taken to protect human rights--
I take my hon. Friend's point about the clause, but it is not as precise as I would wish.
(a) as soon as reasonably practicable after receipt of a general or specific request for advice; and
(b) on such other occasions as the Commission think appropriate."
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