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Dr. Reid: I shall respond, first, to the points raised by the hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell), who asked about international and national operations. Clause 5 applies only to international military operations. I think that we are clear on that. The hon. and learned Gentleman contrasted that with other operations. We do not need a defence when acting alone. We do not need the clause when acting alone because the problem of anti-personnel landmines does not arise when we are acting alone. Therefore, we need a defence only in terms of multinational operations.
The difference between active and passive has been discussed. The hon. and learned Gentleman has given us his interpretation. I am grateful for his offer but I do not think that I would be thanked by the massed ranks of the British armed forces if I were to say, "We decided to ditch clause 5, which relates to your defence, but I know a guy who will do your defence for nothing." However, I am entirely grateful for the hon. and learned Gentleman's offer. Two great moves forward have been taken today in the context of world events. One of them, I hope, is a move forward on landmines; the second is finding a lawyer who is prepared to offer his services for nothing. I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for that.
I do not know how to respond to the shadow Foreign Secretary without repeating the points that I have already made--because the right hon. and learned Gentleman merely repeated his points. He has been told by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, by the Ministry of Defence and by the Law Officers today that the Bill is completely consistent with the convention; the right hon. and learned Gentleman's asserting that it is not does not make it otherwise. However, we listen to what he says.
Secondly, clause 5 is not in the Bill as a licence or as a prompt to action but as a shield for our service men and women lest they be at any stage after the event deemed to be subject to criminality--deemed to be or potentially subject to criminality--because of the actions of others. We believe that the clause is completely compatible with the convention and essential if we are to ask our service men and women to engage in multinational operations where there may be alongside them a party or a state that is not a signatory or ratifying state to the convention.
The United Kingdom Government do not believe that the convention was intended to make international co-operation impossible. Article 1 must be read in that context and not in a vacuum. We have been as clear as anyone could possibly wish in clauses 1 and 2, and we are also clear in our intention in the practical application of the Bill and in the signal that we send to service men and women: that in seeking one great goal, as we do--indeed, in leading in the pursuit of one great goal, as the Government have done--we shall not inadvertently fail to discharge our duty to protect our service men and women from the possibility of being accused of criminality because of the acts of others. These are duties that we shall discharge.
Mr. Howard:
The Minister says that he has explained why clause 5 is not inconsistent with the convention and that I have merely asserted why it is. The precise opposite
As I have repeatedly said, I tabled the amendments to provide a peg on which the debate could be hung. I made it plain from the outset that I would not press them to a vote. I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead):
I beg to move amendment No. 9, in page 2, line 37, leave out from 'for' to end of line 38 and insert 'life'.
The amendment provides for the maximum penalty for the laying of landmines to become life imprisonment. I want the use of anti-personnel mines to be punishable on the same level as war crimes. Negotiations for an international criminal court are currently going on in Rome and have included a discussion on whether the use of indiscriminate weapons such as landmines should be classed as a war crime. I think that it should, and I should like to discover the Government's view on that and on the setting up of an international criminal court.
I listened to the view expressed by the hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell) in a debate earlier today. I have great respect for him. He talks a lot of sense in the House and in the Defence Committee, of which I am also a member, but on this issue I disagree with him. I think that the laying of a landmine should be classed as a war crime. It is an indiscriminate act and, as we have seen, the target is invariably civilians. Indeed, it makes normal civilian life, long after a war is over, near impossible. The former UN Secretary-General, Boutros Boutros Ghali, called landmines weapons of mass destruction in slow motion.
One has only to look at countries such as Bosnia or Cambodia, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) spoke earlier, to see that landmines are laid by war criminals. That is part and parcel of their genocide.
Mr. Menzies Campbell:
I should not like the hon. Gentleman to have the impression that I have closed my mind entirely to whether the indiscriminate laying of landmines should become a war crime. However, I have a number of reservations. For example, would one have to lay 5,000 landmines or just one or two before the act qualifies as a war crime? There are problems of definition, and I am anxious to ensure that the importance of the category of war crime is not diminished by the addition of actions that do not appear naturally to fall within the definition. I repeat that my mind is not closed on the topic.
Mr. Cohen:
I am grateful for the hon. and learned Gentleman's intervention. My view is that laying any landmines should be deemed to be a war crime and should be punishable by life imprisonment.
The laying of these weapons is abhorrent behaviour and by providing life imprisonment--the greatest punishment under British law--as a maximum, this country would
send a clear signal that such behaviour is unacceptable. Life imprisonment is a maximum sentence, at the discretion of a judge. As with punishments for war crimes and other crimes, judges are likely to set a lower sentence, but the amendment is about signalling what is the maximum.
The laying of anti-personnel mines is an intention to murder. A minefield is nothing more or less than a death trap, and it must be clear in the mind of a British subject who uses anti-personnel mines that deaths may well be the result. Can we allow, under British law, a conviction for arson to be punished with a life sentence when the use of anti-personnel mines carries a maximum of only 14 years' imprisonment? Under section 3 of the Explosive Substances Act 1883, which is still in force, the making or keeping of explosives with an intent to endanger life is punishable by a maximum of life imprisonment--and possession of explosives includes possession of landmines. Under the Genocide Act 1969, the maximum sentence is life imprisonment.
My amendment would place the penalties for laying landmines on a par with those for arson, for possession of explosive substances, for genocide and for war crimes. My strong view is that the laying of landmines is a war crime. I hope that the Government will endorse that position in the negotiations to agree the remit of the international criminal court.
Mr. Tony Lloyd:
My hon. Friend has raised two separable issues and I shall treat them as separate, if he will allow me. The first is the penalty available under the Bill for those who are found guilty. Let us establish at the outset that, whether 14 years in prison or life, the penalty will be severe and exemplary, which is right and proper for the crimes prescribed under the Bill. We must give clear signals: in what I hope would prove to be the unlikely event of people being prosecuted under our national legislation for such crimes, they would be dealt with in the most serious fashion by the courts. There is no dispute among hon. Members about the need for tough and exemplary sentences to be available and put into operation, should that be necessary.
We could argue almost endlessly about what precise level of penalty would be sufficient to act as a deterrent and to show the full gravity with which our society condemns such crimes. Precisely because the Bill does not seek to erode other parts of the criminal law, some activities consequent on the placing of landmines could, of themselves, attract higher penalties. Murder is murder, irrespective of how it is caused, so there can be no suggestion that we are not on all fours with some of the other heinous crimes mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen).
Under section 4 of the Explosive Substances Act 1883, the making or possession of explosives in suspicious circumstances carries a maximum penalty of 14 years. That was a reference point for the Bill. The Committee could have an interesting debate about the penalty that should apply to making or possessing explosives, but, after the terrorist outrages in London and Manchester, the location of one of the last IRA bombs, none of us treats those crimes as trivial. We are not being inconsistent by using as a reference point a crime that we judge to be heinous and requiring exemplary sentences.
While we can always argue about what precise measures should apply, I hope that my hon. Friend will accept that in the event of contravention of the Bill
leading to death or serious injury, other criminal offences would apply, along with the relevant penalties. The reference point is consistent with the 1883 Act, so we are not far from making serious and exemplary sentences available to the courts. We are telling the world and our own people that exemplary punishments would be available if the Bill were contravened.
The more important part of my hon. Friend's remarks concerned whether use or possession of landmines should be a war crime. There is a serious debate about the nature of war crimes. As we speak, the conference in Rome on an international criminal court continues. I hope that the Committee supports the Government's wish to see that conference succeed. The hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife graciously said that he supports us; I hope that I can welcome his consistent support with just as much grace.
We are determined to help to bring the Rome conference to a successful conclusion. Agreement must not affect only a narrow group of states. We need an international court that can bear down on the serious and horrendous crimes that have disfigured the planet in recent times. In Europe, we have the example of Yugoslavia, and there is the prospect that the spectre of war crimes will haunt that region again. I have been to Arusha, where the tribunal on Rwanda is taking place, and to Rwanda itself where war crimes certainly happened. We must have an international criminal court that can deal with matters that need international sanctions or where the weight of international opinion is needed to ratify not just justice, but justice as part of reconciliation.
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