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Mr. Gorrie: As I have said, we are making a definite move towards federalism. I hope that, before I look down on this place from a loftier height, or up at it from below, we shall have achieved a federal system of which we can all be proud. The Bill is a great step forward. It has made many English people look for the first time at themselves and how they should run their affairs, and I welcome that.
Mr. Davidson: I am struck by the number of English Tory Members who have said today that they accept that
devolution will now take place. I could almost swear that at least twice I looked up and saw a flying pig disappear behind a cloud outside the window. Their statements have as much credibility as the concept of a flying pig. I do not believe that the Conservatives genuinely accept that devolution is about to happen. Instead of working to improve it and to overcome any difficulties, they continue to fight the general election that they lost. They are still putting forward arguments against devolution, which the people have clearly voted for. One Conservative Member said that he believed in devolution. He would have had more credibility had he said that he believed in revolution. He certainly did not give the impression of believing in devolution in his subsequent comments. That is useful for me and my party because it makes the Conservatives appear anti-Scottish. That is how they present themselves and how they are judged by the people of Scotland. It is why they will continue to fare very badly in Scottish elections.9.15 pm
It is worth remembering why there is so much support in Scotland for a change to the existing constitutional arrangements. I remember the Tories ramming through the poll tax in Scotland against the overwhelming opposition of Scottish Members and the Scottish people. I remember them imposing rigged local government reorganisation against the wishes of the majority of Scottish people and Scottish Members. The same is true of the changes to the structure of the water industry and changes in education. Change after change has been rammed through in spite of the overwhelming views of the Scottish people. They were passed not by an English Member or two making the difference here or there. Those who voted the measures through were overwhelmingly English Tory Members.
The way in which the concerns of the people of Scotland were treated as a joke by Tory Back Benchers has caused the present revulsion against the Conservatives and resulted in the electoral outcome that they richly deserved. Conservative Back Benchers used to speak at inordinate length in Scottish debates to prevent Scottish Members from criticising what was happening in our country. Their arrogance has fuelled the rise in the nationalist vote and the xenophobia that unfortunately exists in parts of Scotland. Until the Conservatives recognise the part that they have played in bringing about the existing political balance in Scotland, they will not be able to move forward and make the contribution that they can make to political debate.
The overwhelming majority of people in Scotland prefer a Labour Government with a scheme of devolution. Their second choice would be the nationalists and independence, ahead of returning to the policies of the previous Tory Government, which were inimical to the interests of the Scottish people. The Scottish general election next May will be a test of those three strands, with the Liberal Democrats tagging along as well. There will be a major debate about whether we want a devolved Scottish Parliament to work.
I regret that the Conservatives have chosen not to make a positive contribution by proposing constructive improvements to the Bill. The best debates on legislation that I have participated in were those on the Bill establishing the national lottery. Once the principle was agreed, all hon. Members came together to discuss how
best to make the system operate rather than obstructing a principle that they had not been in favour of initially. The Conservatives are continuing to fight the war that they have already lost.
I recognise the arguments about a Member of Parliament for Dunfermline being able to vote on matters affecting other parts of the country, but not those that affect Dunfermline. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Savidge) explained the point well. This House is supreme and can decide whether it wants to retain control over education in Dunfermline, transport policy in Glasgow or social work in Edinburgh. If the House decides to delegate and devolve powers, that is not inappropriate. Anomalies are not heaven sent. They are being voted on and agreed by the House. Anomalies will also be created in Wales and, indeed, in London. Many hon. Members have asked where Labour Members are tonight. Most of them are campaigning for constitutional change in London. They are out there trying to ensure devolution for people in London.
Mr. Jenkin:
It is touch and go.
Mr. Davidson:
We shall see. At least we have set up a position in which a majority will decide. I hope that we shall not create any artificial barriers to the reflection of the will of the majority in any vote.
The issue of federalism has been raised on several occasions in the debate. I am not unsympathetic to some of the principles behind it. The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) said that there was a danger that, due to the size of England and the balance between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the English Parliament could achieve the status of a cuckoo in the nest. That is why there is a difficulty about such federalism.
I would be very supportive of a Parliament or some similar structure for the north of England because I am aware that the consciousness of feeling there is far greater than in many other parts of England. If the north of England moved at its pace and others at theirs, anomalies would be created, but at least the structure would correspond to what people wanted. Then, if areas wanted to take powers, they could have them, and the powers that they did not want could remain in the House. I accept that that is untidy, but it corresponds more closely to the will of the various peoples of these islands than some other solutions that have been proposed.
On what Scottish Members of Parliament will do after devolution, I speak as an hon. Member who would be quite prepared to leave the House. I have agonised over whether the House would be able to survive without me. Regrettably, I have come to the conclusion that it would--perhaps, it would be diminished. I should say that some seem so worried that the House might not survive without me that they are prepared to move, if not heaven and earth, at least twinning boundaries to ensure that I am unable to depart.
It is clear--we cannot say this often enough--that major responsibilities will remain in the House, some of which were mentioned by the Secretary of State. Consideration of trade union legislation, which will be coming up shortly, will remain in the House of Commons.
Decisions on reform of the welfare state will remain here virtually in their entirety. Defence matters, foreign affairs, trade and industry and many consumer issues will remain in the House in their entirety.
All those functions could occupy an hon. Member on a full-time basis. They all offer the opportunity for constructive input into political decision making in the House. There will be more than enough work in Westminster for Scottish Members who choose to remain. It is appropriate that those of us who wish to leave recognise that and fly that flag on their behalf. There is no record of Scottish Members pulling less than their weight. I believe that they will continue to do so.
I hope that the House rejects the new clause because it is simply an attempt to wreck the process of devolution. The sooner that the Conservatives get round to accepting genuinely what has been proposed and the will of the Scottish people, the sooner they will make the constructive contribution to Scottish life of which many of them are capable.
Mrs. Gorman:
I do not want to go over all the matters that have been well rehearsed all evening. I feel sad that, when we have these debates, we hear so many Labour Members from Scotland speaking as if they were quite separate from what this Parliament represents, which is the whole of the UK. I remind them that those people who had the opportunity to vote in the referendum were the Scots--and English people and others--in Scotland.
However, not all the Scottish people voted. If those who live in this part of the UK--numerically, they are probably greater than the 5 million in Scotland--had been asked, this debate would not be taking place, because the referendum probably would have gone a different way. We must not allow it to go on the record that this is the will of the whole of the Scottish people, a great many of whom are thoroughly integrated in England.
Mr. Alasdair Morgan:
Surely the hon. Lady realises that the Government, who proposed the Bill, held the referendum and stated in the manifesto that they would introduce Scottish devolution, were largely elected by votes from south of the border.
Mrs. Gorman:
The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly good point. However, there are many parts in a party's manifesto, and it is difficult to suggest that any one is significant in getting the party elected.
I listened with great care to the Secretary of State, who was extremely emollient, charming and high-minded. However, I noticed who crept in and sat alongside him--the Minister without Portfolio, otherwise known as one of the main spin doctors. The party political element--raised briefly by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor) and dismissed by the Secretary of State--is that there is considerable political advantage in the arrangements which the Labour party has proposed.
The creation of separate states in Scotland, as I believe will happen, and in Wales--with a tiny majority--and the motives for the referendum in London, are seen by Labour spin doctors as having a distinct political advantage in maintaining the Labour party's position of power. It is proposed to break up England into regions, because the Labour party feels that many regions would have a strong Labour majority. That ought to be put on the record.
This is not a matter of high-mindedness entirely--of devolution to a people who feel somehow under-represented and oppressed in this place. That is not the basic motivation. That is all the more reason why we should pause, as the new clause asks us to do, and think again about the issue while there is still time. It is certain that the Labour party will not want any alteration to the Bill, but the new clause gives the English people a better opportunity to express their concerns.
The second issue around which we have tip-toed--although it has been mentioned--is the financial issue. Although Scottish Labour Members have been tempted to dismiss it, it is a fact that, in a representative democracy, the people allow themselves to be taxed, by those they elect, for purposes which they see to be of advantage to them. We are ensuring that people who are not elected by English voters will nevertheless have a significant say in the spending of the taxes raised from the English citizens of this country, who are in the majority and who provide the great bulk of the revenues of this country--despite what Scottish Members have said.
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