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9 pm
Dr. Fox: The point that has been made is that those who are elected to the House from English constituencies will be able to ask questions on the health and education
of their constituents, but that those elected from Scottish constituencies will not be able to do so in the House. Where is the equality?
Mr. Dewar: The House has decided that health and education in Scotland should be dealt with in a different forum, and that that business will therefore not be before the House of Commons. However, every hon. Member will have equal rights in considering the business that is properly before the House. Most of the solutions being offered propose that that should not continue to be so. One can argue such a case, but one cannot do so on the basis that the trouble with devolution is that it will make for different classes of hon. Members. That is logically not a tenable position. The matter is of some importance in the script of this argument.
I accept that Conservative Members have, perhaps to their credit, accepted that they have to live with devolution, and that an unmistakable decision has been taken by the people of Scotland in a fairly contested referendum on an unambiguous question. Conservative Members have to recognise those developments, and I give them credit for doing so. However, if that is the position, people have to realise that they must live with it fully. Perhaps understandably, there is a desire to say, "We reluctantly accept the situation, but we still want to alter and perhaps delay the process until change comes." I do not have such a difficulty or take such a position.
The United Kingdom is a partnership, which has separate units, and has worked well for 300 years. I want it to continue working well and serving the people well. However, I think that we will most effectively remain a United Kingdom by recognising the position of Wales and of Scotland, and indeed of England, within the framework of the nation. In our devolution proposals, we are essentially saying only that there is a part of the United Kingdom that, increasingly during the 19th and 20th centuries, has maintained a difference which we should welcome as enriching the culture and political life of the United Kingdom.
Scotland has different health and education structures, different legislation and a different legal system. In many ways, we have a different cultural tradition. Time and again, friends of mine come up from England and invariably, if they are not familiar with Scotland, are struck by the reality of the differences. I think that, if we have such a situation, there is a considerable democratic advantage in saying, "Let us separate those areas of policy from Westminster, where they have sat a little uneasily, and put them under the control of an elected body that directly reflects Scottish opinion."
I accept that we do not necessarily want to take the same action in the north or west of England, as that might fragment something that most people in England think of as a unit. I accept also that people in those areas have a different tradition and a different attitude. However, there is no reason why the wishes of Scotland should not be so recognised.
If I may, I shall be extremely selfish for a moment. I have been in my present job for a year, and, in terms of better government, I can see enormous administrative advantages for Scotland under a devolved settlement. There are advantages for the scrutiny and analysis of legislation and for the decision-making process, so there is a very strong democratic case to be made.
My view, which I put on the record prosaically, is that it does not help to try to turn what I accept Conservative Members genuinely regard as a difficulty into a crisis that will destroy and promote turmoil in this country. By all means, let us talk sensibly about progress and further change. Of course, I have always seen the democratic and constitutional programme as a catalyst for further thought, but let us proceed sensibly to see whether there really is a problem. It may not be the problem that Conservative Members think it is. I do not believe that it will turn out to be that problem, but, if it does, it can be coped with on the basis of the tolerance and common sense that have always been the hallmarks of United Kingdom politics.
Mr. Gorrie:
I welcome this debate as a few faltering steps on the road to federalism, which our party feels will be the final solution. Much good sense has been spoken in all quarters of the House. I shall set out how I think that we have got to where we are and why I think that the Conservatives have identified the wrong issue with the new clause.
We believe that sovereignty resides with the people and that the United Kingdom is a Union of nations, not a unitary state. The Scots, as one of those nations, have decided, because of their dissatisfaction with activities in this House over a good many years, to exercise their sovereignty and to have some of that sovereignty in future exercised in Edinburgh, as well as some here and some in Europe. By passing the Bill, we shall solve one major problem--the Scots' dissatisfaction with the way things were done--but we have created an anomaly by doing that.
The first question to be asked is how great is that anomaly. Some Conservatives think that it is a major disaster, as does the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) who sometimes appears to have escaped from the Old Testament. He would have been a very distinguished ornament among the Old Testament prophets, or a distinguished member of the group of doom and gloom preachers whom his ancestor so vigorously massacred. However, the hon. Gentleman overdoes the doom and gloom. There is a problem but, as the Secretary of State said, it is not a major one.
Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan):
The ancestor of the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) was reputed to have played cards with the devil; all that the hon. Member for Linlithgow has done is to play a few hands with the Tory party.
Mr. Gorrie:
In our view, the Conservatives have identified the wrong issue. They think that the issue is the Scottish Members, whereas we think it is the English business. That is what Parliament has to address.
Some hon. Members have maintained that, unless this Parliament runs absolutely everything, civilisation and the world as we know it will collapse. I have been in the House only a short while, but spent 26 years as a councillor. Having become a Member of Parliament and ceased to be a councillor, I have to accept that many things affecting my community are decided by other elected people, not by me. Other people take planning decisions, close schools and so on. The idea that different elected bodies have different powers does not seem to be that great an issue.
Under the proposals, there will not be second-class Members because all Members will have the same restrictions. English Members will not be able to vote on Scottish domestic issues, but nor will Scottish Members. So it will be the same for everyone. The Conservatives made the wrong distinction. Some of them conjured up a picture of their surgeries being besieged by constituents who were absolutely livid that their Member of Parliament could no longer vote on education in Caithness or hospitals in Glasgow. I do not find that very convincing. Constituents worry about local services and not about whether their Member of Parliament can vote on issues affecting the other end of the country.
Although we have made great progress, the issue is the English business. I recognise that it is a difficult one because England is by far the most populous part of the United Kingdom and, quite understandably, many English people did not distinguish between England and the United Kingdom. However, now that Scotland and Wales are being treated differently, they are reappraising their Englishness, and that is a good thing. As others have said, it will result in evolution--gradual, uneven and untidy--which will lead to federalism, but there may be another solution.
There are various options for English people in exercising their sovereignty. Just as the Scottish people have chosen to exercise their sovereignty in a Scottish Parliament, the English people, when they have given the matter mature reflection, can opt for the status quo, warts and all; for a combination of strong regional assemblies dealing with English affairs; for an English Grand Committee, as has been mentioned; for an English Parliament made up of English Members of the Westminster Parliament; or for a totally different English Parliament. All those possibilities keep to the basic rule that all hon. Members must be equal.
The Conservative new clause would create second-class Scottish Members, and therefore goes in the wrong direction. What is needed is a way of dealing with the English business in a coherent fashion to allow English Members to deal with English business in whichever way the English people choose. The Irish will have their own Assembly and the Welsh and the Scots will also control their own domestic activities. In that way, whether it is a federal or quasi-federal system, we shall end up with a fair arrangement that will satisfy everyone. The Conservative new clause will be seen as creating second-class Scottish Members and will cause antagonism in Scotland. We accept that there is concern in some quarters in England, but it is an English question--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. I have noticed that a few conversations are taking place around the Chamber. That is not fair to the hon. Gentleman who is addressing the House.
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